fanguad
Junior Strategist
Posts: 210
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Post by fanguad on Oct 2, 2019 20:17:21 GMT
If you're even in the Dallas/Fort Worth area, take a free tour of Reaper Miniature's factory (contact them ahead of time). You'll learn a lot about making minis. Here's my understanding:
Metal minis use rubber molds - $100ish per mold and can be used hundreds of times. The equipment to make metal minis can fit in a small room and requires relatively low skill. Most of the cost of the mini is due to the metal.
Hand-poured resin minis (not spincast) usually use silicon molds - not sure on price, but probably vaguely on par with metal molds. These molds can be used dozens of times. The equipment to make resin minis is minimal, but it requires a degree of skill to get good casts. The process of casting is labor intensive. Most of the cost is human labor and miscasts.
Spincast resin minis: not sure of the mechanics, but there only a few companies that have recently started to make non-terrible minis using this process.
Plastic (PVC and HIPS): molds cost $10,000+ and machines to run molds cost $1,000,000+. Molds require specialized training to create, although running the machines does not. These minis are typically outsourced to China because of the expense of the machines. Most of the cost is paying off the molds and shipping/handling charges.
SUPER IMPORTANT POINT: PP casts their own metal minis in-house. That's huge from a supply chain perspective.
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shmeep
Junior Strategist
Posts: 742
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Post by shmeep on Oct 2, 2019 20:22:55 GMT
I wonder what the cost today is for prepainted, lower quality, plastic miniatures. HeroScape did it, Wizards of the Coast does it, and even lower quality minis look fine on the table when you're a few feet away. You also need a large playerbase that is willing to buy the minis to make up the cost, and I can't be optimistic in saying that PP has that base. depends on how low you're willing to let the quality drop. AFAIK PP work with chinese manufacturers, but there's China, and then there's CHINA. I'm not actually part of any WMH community, so I wouldn't know, but from what I've heard most players don't give a rat's ass about the hobby side of the game, so switching over to some really cheap, shitty materials, dropping prices and going full throttle on the competitive aspect might actually be a wise business decision.
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Post by michael on Oct 2, 2019 20:30:38 GMT
I'm not actually part of any WMH community, so I wouldn't know, but from what I've heard most players don't give a rat's ass about the hobby side of the game, so switching over to some really cheap, shitty materials, dropping prices and going full throttle on the competitive aspect might actually be a wise business decision. Given that you are self-admittedly not involved in this game in a social setting: you are mistaken. Games can have the best rules ever, but consumers judge value partly on looks, and crappy-looking models on a table will not draw new players into the hobby.
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shmeep
Junior Strategist
Posts: 742
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Post by shmeep on Oct 2, 2019 20:40:00 GMT
I'm not actually part of any WMH community, so I wouldn't know, but from what I've heard most players don't give a rat's ass about the hobby side of the game, so switching over to some really cheap, shitty materials, dropping prices and going full throttle on the competitive aspect might actually be a wise business decision. Given that you are self-admittedly not involved in this game in a social setting: you are mistaken. Games can have the best rules ever, but consumers judge value partly on looks, and crappy-looking models on a table will not draw new players into the hobby. I'll have to take your word on that. Absolutely, the reason I got into warmachine in the first place wasn't the rules, although those were a factor (when I jumped in I was only familiar with it and WH), but the fact that I really liked the way the minis look.
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Post by frumiousbandersnatch on Oct 3, 2019 14:23:09 GMT
PP already tried the dirt cheap, terrible quality models route. Roughly 2009-2013 when they were making everything in that PVC plastic/resin hybrid from China. It was absolutely the worst model material I've ever seen, assembled or painted save only for GW's Resin models. Lots of PP models are still in this material and even though a lot of the sculpts look great, the material nearly ruins them with horribly flash and mold lines and a propensity to bending and warping. I really, really love their recent kits, though. The Resin/metal hybrids look great.
I'm on the way out the door of this game, though. I've been playing for 10 years, but Mk3 killed my meta. I've tried 3 or 4 times to reignite my scene with goo initial interest, but I can't keep anyone interested for more than a couple months and there's too many other fantastic games to play. It doesn't make sense to keep holding on to a game no one has much interest it. Will keep my models because you practically cannot give PP product away anymore.
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shmeep
Junior Strategist
Posts: 742
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Post by shmeep on Oct 3, 2019 18:07:16 GMT
PP already tried the dirt cheap, terrible quality models route. Roughly 2009-2013 when they were making everything in that PVC plastic/resin hybrid from China. It was absolutely the worst model material I've ever seen, assembled or painted save only for GW's Resin models. Lots of PP models are still in this material and even though a lot of the sculpts look great, the material nearly ruins them with horribly flash and mold lines and a propensity to bending and warping. I really, really love their recent kits, though. The Resin/metal hybrids look great. I'm on the way out the door of this game, though. I've been playing for 10 years, but Mk3 killed my meta. I've tried 3 or 4 times to reignite my scene with goo initial interest, but I can't keep anyone interested for more than a couple months and there's too many other fantastic games to play. It doesn't make sense to keep holding on to a game no one has much interest it. Will keep my models because you practically cannot give PP product away anymore. Noooo Bendydick Cummingbatch dont leave WMH your so sexy aha Is that the battlebox material? Cause those vary wildly in quality, from perfectly fine to trash. Have you tried selling on eBay? Even secondhand there's a lot of competition when I try to find stuff.
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Post by frumiousbandersnatch on Oct 4, 2019 1:39:17 GMT
The current BB material I believe is the same crappy material or at least similar. The original multi jack/beast kits were in this material and lots of infantry was released or resculpted in this material (Fennblades, new champions, warders, new ravagers, winterkorps were remade in it, lots and lots). Stuff has been re-resculpted though so I'm not sure about all the models that are only available in that material still. At any rate, I haven't tried to offload my current army. I was selling a small lot a year or so ago I couldn't get anyone to bite on. I finally put it all on ebay and it literally sold with a single bid. It was $490 worth of minis that went for $125 shipped lol.
I'm on plenty of buy/sell/trade groups and ebay and such. The secondary market for this game has been terrrrible for a long time, but it's good if you're a buyer. If you're patient and willing to make a deal you can readily buy lots for 20-30% OF MSRP. It's hard to let go of minis for that cheap. My army is still sentimental to me, though, because I love the years I spent with this game. I did sell off my other huge army about two years ago. Near faction complete Trollblood army. Something I thought I would NEVER do. Give me another year or two to mourn and I'm sure my last army will be up for grabs lol.
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shmeep
Junior Strategist
Posts: 742
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Post by shmeep on Oct 4, 2019 3:30:23 GMT
The current BB material I believe is the same crappy material or at least similar. The original multi jack/beast kits were in this material and lots of infantry was released or resculpted in this material (Fennblades, new champions, warders, new ravagers, winterkorps were remade in it, lots and lots). Stuff has been re-resculpted though so I'm not sure about all the models that are only available in that material still. At any rate, I haven't tried to offload my current army. I was selling a small lot a year or so ago I couldn't get anyone to bite on. I finally put it all on ebay and it literally sold with a single bid. It was $490 worth of minis that went for $125 shipped lol. I'm on plenty of buy/sell/trade groups and ebay and such. The secondary market for this game has been terrrrible for a long time, but it's good if you're a buyer. If you're patient and willing to make a deal you can readily buy lots for 20-30% OF MSRP. It's hard to let go of minis for that cheap. My army is still sentimental to me, though, because I love the years I spent with this game. I did sell off my other huge army about two years ago. Near faction complete Trollblood army. Something I thought I would NEVER do. Give me another year or two to mourn and I'm sure my last army will be up for grabs lol. I'm so used to mentally adjusting the cost of the stuff I buy on eBay to include shipping that I often forget just how cheap it's being sold, so yea, you're not wrong there. Recently bought a used lot of two heavies, a couple of solos and 4 units for 40 bucks, but then the shipping's also 40 bucks. That's still something like 25% of MSRP. It kind of sucks for me that I usually have to skip the really dirt cheap deals because of shipping costs, but then I'm buying these things from the other side of the planet, so I really can't complain too much.
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Post by autocorrecthaslimits on Oct 4, 2019 3:54:32 GMT
To be fair, the second hand market of pre-mk3 stuff is worth little. I picked up 1500 dollars worth of legion for 350 plus shipping, and it included pretty much the whole faction save chosen, hellmouths, blighbringer, the new primal terrors stuff, etc. That newer stuff I usually find either in huge lots (500-600 dollar range) or for 50% off on a sale like miniature market does once in a while. Mercs are either dirt cheap or 15% off new- all lots seem to be from people who jettisoned sometime before mk3. Same with ret- over the last year, I've seen maybe 1 to 2 lots with tridents, but MHSF lists for 25% of msrp. I hope that as the breakneck pace of mk3 releases slows down, PP does some nice CID/dynamic updates to older stuff, and if so I'd bet the second market will stabilize a bit. Until then, i will enjoy adding super cheap cygnar and khador jacks to my flames in the darkness merc builds
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Post by jagius021 on Oct 4, 2019 19:50:19 GMT
I'm having more fun with warmachine now than I ever have save for that first month of excitement of a new game. Sometimes I think people like to be outraged because outrage is validating but contentedness doesn't feel exciting at all.
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Post by Rork on Oct 5, 2019 17:50:07 GMT
I'm having more fun with warmachine now than I ever have save for that first month of excitement of a new game. Sometimes I think people like to be outraged because outrage is validating but contentedness doesn't feel exciting at all. Social media perpetuates outrage. Once upon a time, outrage would come and go quite quickly. Now it's perpetuated by social media/blogs/memes and 100 reply posts. Very few, if any, people post to say that they're doing fine (Incidentally, I am! And I'm playing Cygnar without Oblivion things currently!). Warmachine is in a good place - sure, there are some issues, but every game has its issues. There is always going to be some things above and below the curve. Perfect balance isn't a thing, and it's important to have fun with the things you have fun with.
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Post by peemster on Oct 6, 2019 10:26:29 GMT
Jesus H this forum cannot keep on topic. Are moderators an extinct species or what?
Regarding Jeff and people throwing aspersions on his name: "LOL he's 40 and working an entry level job" -- STFU. Getting a job in the game industry is *not easy*. His job was not entry level. His pay was only shit because PP pays shit.
"Entry Level" means any high-school graduate could rock up and get the job as long as they're reasonably intelligent. That is not true of ANY job in games.
I don't think Jeff comported himself super well on social media during his tenure (he seemed stiff and testy to me; if I were representing my company on soshul meeja I'd absolutely ensure I was stodgy & professional to a T), but neither does their social media coordinator act all that professional, either. I trust Jeff's opinion of his time with the company. Literally, what does he have to gain by putting this information out there? He's risking his reputation to tell the truth.
I tried to get back into WMH in 2019 and I found it an opaque mess with WAY too high of a barrier to entry. I tried MonPoc and enjoyed it, but there's not enough there for me, and now with this review I'm basically jumping off the PP sinking ship.
Judgement is the next thing. I know it's small now and you can't get it in your FLGS. That won't last for long. I hope Warcaster does well, but I'm not holding my breath. Warmachine is in its death throes and we'll see if PP can survive them.
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Post by michael on Oct 6, 2019 13:52:35 GMT
.... I trust Jeff's opinion of his time with the company. Literally, what does he have to gain by putting this information out there? He's risking his reputation to tell the truth. There are two sides to every story. Whose side have we not heard? His Glassdoor complaint reads like someone who’s just plain angry. I have been that angry at previous employers. I told their HR department when I left; I didn’t air my grievances on social media. If one wishes to affect change, one tells the company about the issue, and maybe even sticks around to help fix the problem. If one wants to make a public spectacle, one airs their grievances on social media. I met him several times in person at conventions long before this thread rolled around. I found him exceptionally difficult to approach and nigh impossible to have a conversation with. That experience remained consistent and goes back well over a year.
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Post by jagius021 on Oct 6, 2019 16:24:29 GMT
What does he have to gain by saying all that? Why, the thing everyone wants. Validation. If he is feeling hurt and he writes something that gets people upset then his hurt feelings feel validated because other people hear him and mirror his thoughts. Then they feel valuable. So he has lots to gain by writing it. Just like every other dissenting and assenting voice out there.
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Post by LoS Jaden on Oct 6, 2019 18:41:50 GMT
Jesus H this forum cannot keep on topic. Are moderators an extinct species or what? Regarding Jeff and people throwing aspersions on his name: "LOL he's 40 and working an entry level job" -- STFU. Getting a job in the game industry is *not easy*. His job was not entry level. His pay was only shit because PP pays shit. "Entry Level" means any high-school graduate could rock up and get the job as long as they're reasonably intelligent. That is not true of ANY job in games. I don't think Jeff comported himself super well on social media during his tenure (he seemed stiff and testy to me; if I were representing my company on soshul meeja I'd absolutely ensure I was stodgy & professional to a T), but neither does their social media coordinator act all that professional, either. I trust Jeff's opinion of his time with the company. Literally, what does he have to gain by putting this information out there? He's risking his reputation to tell the truth. I tried to get back into WMH in 2019 and I found it an opaque mess with WAY too high of a barrier to entry. I tried MonPoc and enjoyed it, but there's not enough there for me, and now with this review I'm basically jumping off the PP sinking ship. Judgement is the next thing. I know it's small now and you can't get it in your FLGS. That won't last for long. I hope Warcaster does well, but I'm not holding my breath. Warmachine is in its death throes and we'll see if PP can survive them. Judgement (yeah I think it's the next thing too)
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