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Post by beardmonk on Oct 7, 2019 7:57:35 GMT
I tried to get back into WMH in 2019 and I found it an opaque mess with WAY too high of a barrier to entry. I tried MonPoc and enjoyed it, but there's not enough there for me, and now with this review I'm basically jumping off the PP sinking ship. I don't think PP is a sinking ship. Its a grand, impressive ship that offers many things that most ships either don't, cant or are just catching up to. But the ship now has engine and steering problems, going round and round in the middle of the ocean. The band plays on. A limited buffet is still being offered. Many people are enjoying the music and food. Others want to get off or have the ship steered toward a port. The captain is having a cigar and brandy on an island nearby, ignoring all the issues. To REALLY painfully stretch an analogy.
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Post by dogganmguest on Oct 8, 2019 20:08:27 GMT
I don't think Jeff comported himself super well on social media during his tenure (he seemed stiff and testy to me; if I were representing my company on soshul meeja I'd absolutely ensure I was stodgy & professional to a T), but neither does their social media coordinator act all that professional, either. I trust Jeff's opinion of his time with the company. Literally, what does he have to gain by putting this information out there? He's risking his reputation to tell the truth. I think the funniest part, given this rant, is he would often get shitty (at customers!) when someone expressed a negative opinion.
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Post by mydnight on Oct 8, 2019 22:41:48 GMT
The captain is having a cigar and brandy on an island nearby, ignoring all the issues. This needs to be stated a million times. Jeff's revelation of Matt's 'non-gamer' status and micromanagement just confirms rumors that have been going around for ages.
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Post by Charistoph on Oct 9, 2019 1:05:10 GMT
This needs to be stated a million times. Jeff's revelation of Matt's 'non-gamer' status and micromanagement just confirms rumors that have been going around for ages. Maybe, maybe not. He could have just jumped on the band wagon he already knows about.
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Cyel
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Cyel on Oct 9, 2019 9:14:38 GMT
PP already tried the dirt cheap, terrible quality models route. Roughly 2009-2013 when they were making everything in that PVC plastic/resin hybrid from China. It was absolutely the worst model material I've ever seen, assembled or painted save only for GW's Resin models. Lots of PP models are still in this material and even though a lot of the sculpts look great, the material nearly ruins them with horribly flash and mold lines and a propensity to bending and warping. I really, really love their recent kits, though. The Resin/metal hybrids look great. Assuming that PP is trying with RQ to get a piece of the booming boardgame market and have a gateway product, the PVC plastic would be perfectly fine. Note that regular boardgamers with no wargaming background who enjoy ameritrashy games with miniatures, are perfectly happy to have poor quality, rubbery figures in their games (for example Fantasy Flight Games' Descent or Mansion of Madness or Ciclades or Memoir 44' or thosands of others) and still call them "cool!" and "looking great!". Battlebox quality figures would be a lot of improvement compared to your average boardgame anyway.
Going for metal which requires both assembly and painting to be playable (instead of single piece, colour coded plastic) just eliminates swathes of potential customers from outside the wargaming circle.
Also, do I understand correctly that buying a starter box doesn't even allow you to play the game (5 models in the box and the game requires 4 per player)? Why?!?!?! Who approved that!? That's absurd. They wanted to copy WH:Underworlds success and didn't notice those things?
I really wonder what the reception of the game at Essen Spiel 2019 will be. If they present it there ofc. But nobody would decide not to go to a boardgaming fair 3 times biger than GenCon if they wanted to promote their board game, wouldn't they ... ?
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Post by hypnotoad on Oct 9, 2019 12:57:19 GMT
PP already tried the dirt cheap, terrible quality models route. Roughly 2009-2013 when they were making everything in that PVC plastic/resin hybrid from China. It was absolutely the worst model material I've ever seen, assembled or painted save only for GW's Resin models. Lots of PP models are still in this material and even though a lot of the sculpts look great, the material nearly ruins them with horribly flash and mold lines and a propensity to bending and warping. I really, really love their recent kits, though. The Resin/metal hybrids look great. Assuming that PP is trying with RQ to get a piece of the booming boardgame market and have a gateway product, the PVC plastic would be perfectly fine. Note that regular boardgamers with no wargaming background who enjoy ameritrashy games with miniatures, are perfectly happy to have poor quality, rubbery figures in their games (for example Fantasy Flight Games' Descent or Mansion of Madness or Ciclades or Memoir 44' or thosands of others) and still call them "cool!" and "looking great!". Battlebox quality figures would be a lot of improvement compared to your average boardgame anyway.
Going for metal which requires both assembly and painting to be playable (instead of single piece, colour coded plastic) just eliminates swathes of potential customers from outside the wargaming circle.
Also, do I understand correctly that buying a starter box doesn't even allow you to play the game (5 models in the box and the game requires 4 per player)? Why?!?!?! Who approved that!? That's absurd. They wanted to copy WH:Underworlds success and didn't notice those things?
I really wonder what the reception of the game at Essen Spiel 2019 will be. If they present it there ofc. But nobody would decide not to go to a boardgaming fair 3 times biger than GenCon if they wanted to promote their board game, wouldn't they ... ?
"Ameritrash" is the dumbest term in board gaming.
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Post by michael on Oct 9, 2019 13:07:26 GMT
Also, do I understand correctly that buying a starter box doesn't even allow you to play the game (5 models in the box and the game requires 4 per player)? Why?!?!?! Who approved that!? That's absurd. ... You mean, just like all those Warmachine, Hordes, and Monsterpocalypse starter boxes that provide one player all the models they need to play the game? What monsters! Gee-effing-dee: LOOK AT THE BOX. www.miniaturemarket.com/pip63001.htmlWhat does the box say, right there on the front? Is “single player starter” somehow unclear? The General forum is a cesspit or manufactured outrage. All of you: get over it. We’ve got people who don’t be play any of these games issuing decrees from on high, we’ve got people who have pretty obviously never spoken to Matt Wilson in person detailing his egregious personality defects with their third-hand knowledge, people using Jeff’s side of the story only as vindication of their own prejudices; it’s fantastic.
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Post by hypnotoad on Oct 9, 2019 13:25:10 GMT
The General forum is a cesspit or manufactured outrage. All of you: get over it. We’ve got people who don’t be play any of these games issuing decrees from on high, we’ve got people who have pretty obviously never spoken to Matt Wilson in person detailing his egregious personality defects with their third-hand knowledge, people using Jeff’s side of the story only as vindication of their own prejudices; it’s fantastic. [/quote]
Agreed. Speculating on Matt Wilson's personality is stupid.
Telling people to get over PP tanking is hilarious. Get luck with that sage advice.
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gupp
Junior Strategist
Posts: 134
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Post by gupp on Oct 9, 2019 15:26:27 GMT
If pp was wizards of the coast I think the overall demographic would be a lot different.
I don’t know if any of us would want to see $250 “alternate sculpts” or things like that. There’s a certain equality among the community that’s not seen there
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Cyel
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Cyel on Oct 9, 2019 15:44:52 GMT
Also, do I understand correctly that buying a starter box doesn't even allow you to play the game (5 models in the box and the game requires 4 per player)? Why?!?!?! Who approved that!? That's absurd. ... You mean, just like all those Warmachine, Hordes, and Monsterpocalypse starter boxes that provide one player all the models they need to play the game? What monsters! Gee-effing-dee: LOOK AT THE BOX. www.miniaturemarket.com/pip63001.htmlWhat does the box say, right there on the front? Is “single player starter” somehow unclear? The General forum is a cesspit or manufactured outrage. All of you: get over it. We’ve got people who don’t be play any of these games issuing decrees from on high, we’ve got people who have pretty obviously never spoken to Matt Wilson in person detailing his egregious personality defects with their third-hand knowledge, people using Jeff’s side of the story only as vindication of their own prejudices; it’s fantastic. Well, first thing, I actually like WM&H very much and I promote it locally, organise tournaments, teach new players. Polish community even rewarded me with a full Cryx army last yearcas a thank you for my efforts, so a missed assumption here from you. Tough luck.
I care about PP's mistakes because I don't want WM&H to go down and that's why it hurts me to see such stupid mistakes on their part.
As for info on the RQ box - why would you mention that? How exactly does it change the fact that making the game unplayable straight out of the box is a colossal mistake, a huge barrier of entry for something that is supposed to be a gateway game and a foothold on the boardgame market? What will an average gamer think? "Wait, I can't even invite my friend for a game of RQ unless I buy TWO boxes? Effectively doubling the cost of entry compared to the competition who have fully playable boxes for the same price as an unplayable PP one?"
Btw, which of the successful competitors does that ? None AFAIK
Comparison to MonPoc is also a failed one, as it is a game hardly anyone plays* despite it being allegedly a stellar, fun game. If a great game has little success it means something else failed, business model and promotion most likely. MonPoc apparently could be a worldwide hit, but it's a niche within a niche due to those mistakes (unplayable yet expensive starters, no promotion - despite it being released to US market first and foremost it still doesn't have a Dice Tower review for crying out loud!)
But you know what, our discussion is theoretical anyway. What do I know, maybe RQ is destined to take the boardgaming scene by storm, wiping away competition, stunning everyone at Essen with its innovative design, accessible format and affordable business model. I agreee, so far it isn't in the BGG's hotness list of most trending games ( boardgamegeek.com/ - panel on the left) but let's give it a few more days...
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Post by jisidro on Oct 9, 2019 15:53:41 GMT
This needs to be stated a million times. Jeff's revelation of Matt's 'non-gamer' status and micromanagement just confirms rumors that have been going around for ages. Calling this a revelation is too much IMO. He never struck me as a good fit for PP, how much of this is passing the blame?
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Post by marxlives on Oct 9, 2019 16:28:56 GMT
Sounds like it. I don't think he's out to destroy the company though, but rather hoping to somehow start some change. Posting hate online is a dumb way to do it. I have worked for small companies before that didn't pay well and had no room for promotion. But they were an excellent place to learn new skills and polish that resume. Gaming industry, hell even the video game industry is not a place you want to work in if you want to make big bucks. If you break through into the top echelons great. If you don't, heck at least you got the chance to expand your resume. 40 year old men need to have reasonable expectations.
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Post by marxlives on Oct 9, 2019 16:29:31 GMT
MIDLE AEGD MAN MAEKING NEAR MINAMUM WAEG IN ENTARY LEVLEL JOB LEEVES REVIE W TRASHING COMPNY IN ANOTER FANTASSTIC LIEF CHOICE! FLIM AT 11 Preach it brotha! And at 12 dog bites man.
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Post by marxlives on Oct 9, 2019 16:35:52 GMT
MIDLE AEGD MAN MAEKING NEAR MINAMUM WAEG IN ENTARY LEVLEL JOB LEEVES REVIE W TRASHING COMPNY IN ANOTER FANTASSTIC LIEF CHOICE! FLIM AT 11 I think that fact is telling, but for the opposite reason. As someone who recently took a pay cut to start a new career in an entry level position, making lower money in the short term is something I am prepared to do, because I can see a clear path of progression, and like the company culture. The fact Jeff felt the experience he was getting doing most nerds dream job, was not enough to outweigh a bad working environment may be telling This is pretty common for the game industry. You actually hear the same thing from programmers who work for big companies. If you are in your 40s and are still trying to "break in", it is time to give up the ghost. The only alternative I see is if game dev is your second job and you are looking to make your own IP. The gaming industry, digital or not, just doesn't pay like it used to, and it never payed that good anyway unless your name was Lord British, Roberta Williams, etc. and you were making your own product. Worst thing of all is the guy could have just looked reality in the face and say "this is a mid tier company, with limited growth, and at least I got the chance to polish my resume". I think he already got a job, but hopefully in the future he doesn't make this a habit. Trashing former employers is not a good way to get a job, especially in a small industry like gaming.
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Post by marxlives on Oct 9, 2019 16:38:38 GMT
Isn't Riot Quest DoA btw? Yup my sentiments exactly. PP is horrible at marketing its new games. It seems they have no proper marketing department or strategy. GW is working hard to get those $$$ Seems like a disparity. I hear Ash over at GMG giving glowing reviews of RQ and MonPoc. It is almost as if these two products aren't geared to tournament players and we are really lacking the data of how many kitchen table gamers are picking these up. It is almost as if PP is diversifying their consumer based since putting all your eggs in the hunting for tourney whales is not a long term formula for success.
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