shiver
Junior Strategist
Posts: 150
|
Post by shiver on Oct 27, 2019 3:50:57 GMT
most of the people I've seen talk about the app said it's donkey shit. It's odd how antiquated PP seem compared to their rivals. Man, don't you know, the only person who knows what they're talking about is Michael. Trust me, he will tell you. He is also the only one allowed to have an opinion. He also knows EVERYONE at PP and has a super sweet inside track that tells him everything going on with the game/company. He is also a master retailer and salesperson, as well as the arbiter of what could, should and will happen and the dictator of valid opinions. Silly mortal, you should've known. IRT to a few points: Why the hell would anyone "stay with" a game that isn't fun, especially a PC game? That's one of the dumbest things I have heard. If a game isn't fun, namely because its a buggy pile of shit and its graphical optimization is terrible, the mechanics are broken and the game was cut short of content then the company isn't deserving of my patience, they're deserving of a negative review of their product and scorn from the people who purchased it to fix it. The impetus isn't on me to buy a shitty product and "stick with it" until its better, the impetus is on the developer to create a good product that is fun to play. If they fail to do so, I am under no obligation to keep playing it, wasting my time and hope that the same people who produced this partial-birth abortion of a game to somehow get it right. No thanks, I'd rather just play XCcom, Battlefleet Gothic, Homeworld/Homeworld 2, Civ, or any other really decent PC strategy game. This is also, obviously the reaction of most of the people who bought the game, backed the kickstarter, or otherwise came across this hapless pile of shit.
|
|
|
Post by dogganmguest on Oct 27, 2019 6:15:18 GMT
No, you should've supported it because then PP would have incentive to invest in another game and that one might be good. Because obviously, this would be somehow distinguishable from people actually liking the game, and would not mislead anyone into thinking that festering pile was what people wanted. This is what self-bestowed fair and balanced looks like.
|
|
bundeez
Junior Strategist
Posts: 325
|
Post by bundeez on Oct 27, 2019 13:34:00 GMT
shiver: Thank you!!! Finally someone said it! I'm so fu**ing tired of reading Michael's self righteous comments again and again. Well said sir, I completely agree with you.
|
|
shmeep
Junior Strategist
Posts: 742
|
Post by shmeep on Oct 27, 2019 16:38:59 GMT
most of the people I've seen talk about the app said it's donkey shit. It's odd how antiquated PP seem compared to their rivals. Most people who talk about that sort of thing don’t know what they’re talking about. Let’s talk about GW, the undisputed largest minis game company out there. When you see the latest game of 40k happening at your store, do the players track all relevant stuff through a handy app, or are they flipping through 150-page hardcover books looking for crap and referencing handwritten army lists and marking wounds with nondescript dice, 95% of the time? How about Guild Ball? X-wing? Kill Team? Malifaux? Infinity is the only other minis game I can remember seeing played with an app. The buttons and sliders reminded me of a mid-90s 4x strategy game. (But also I admit I lacked sufficient context to understand what I was looking at!) Also: have you ever used War Room 2? Do you have any personal experience with it? I haven't and won't use WR for practical and religious reasons, but considering it's a paid supplement the level of anger I've seen it arouse in people makes me skeptical. Plus, free alternatives that are apparently plain better.
|
|
|
Post by michael on Oct 27, 2019 17:15:25 GMT
Yep, that’s me, self-righteous! So... care to come up with a plausible scenario for how and why Privateer would ever take the risk of making another video game? (Also: it helps to try discussing the points raised instead of attacking the people making those points. Saying what amounts to “Nuh uh!” doesn’t quite cut it as a coherent argument.) But, I’ve gotta admit, you’re right, guys! Nobody has EVER (Warmachine black & white Prime) released a suboptimal product and, through the long-term support (Prime Remix) and the dedication of fans (MK II) ever iterated to a better product (MK III). I mean that is crazy! Who ever heard of such a ridiculous idea?! Obviously buying imperfect products would only encourage the company to keep making the exact same products! There’s no way they’d ever listen to customers who ask for improvements, or ever consider changing things on their own initiative! On a completely unrelated topic: I love the block feature on this forum so much.
|
|
|
Post by michael on Oct 27, 2019 17:41:11 GMT
Same goes for conflict chamber vs war room. One guy on his own does a better job of squashing bugs and meeting his (targeted subset of) users' needs. The apps for Guild Ball are also created by fans, though one of them (arguably the worst choice) is now officially recommended by steamforged. For what it’s worth re: War Room 2 versus Conflict Chamber: I have only ever experienced a single actual bug in WR2, and that was with a 500-ish point Unbound list, so hardly commonplace. The random listbuilding goofs happen everywhere. I know I’ve hit a few in Conflict Chamber. Personally, I have found Conflict Chamber harder to use. I disliked the way it automatically chose the free models prior to Oblivion (disclosure: haven’t tried post-Oblivion) and I know I saw plenty of weird PC miscalculations that occurred when repeatedly adding and subtracting items from a list. All of which is to say: Conflict Chamber is not bug-free or perfect. We should remember that when discussing the merits. Is the addition of full-on rules and guaranteed lifetime updates (above and beyond list-building capabilities) worth the price of admission for WR2? It is for me, and for pretty much everyone else I have ever encountered. Do you find that people use the free solutions over War Room 2?
|
|
|
Post by Charistoph on Oct 27, 2019 21:39:59 GMT
Same goes for conflict chamber vs war room. One guy on his own does a better job of squashing bugs and meeting his (targeted subset of) users' needs. The apps for Guild Ball are also created by fans, though one of them (arguably the worst choice) is now officially recommended by steamforged. For what it’s worth re: War Room 2 versus Conflict Chamber: I have only ever experienced a single actual bug in WR2, and that was with a 500-ish point Unbound list, so hardly commonplace. The random listbuilding goofs happen everywhere. I know I’ve hit a few in Conflict Chamber. Personally, I have found Conflict Chamber harder to use. I disliked the way it automatically chose the free models prior to Oblivion (disclosure: haven’t tried post-Oblivion) and I know I saw plenty of weird PC miscalculations that occurred when repeatedly adding and subtracting items from a list. All of which is to say: Conflict Chamber is not bug-free or perfect. We should remember that when discussing the merits. Is the addition of full-on rules and guaranteed lifetime updates (above and beyond list-building capabilities) worth the price of admission for WR2? It is for me, and for pretty much everyone else I have ever encountered. Do you find that people use the free solutions over War Room 2?
War Room's free models aren't the best, though it is does let you choose them, but it can make your list somewhat illegal if you aren't prepared for it, since you have to back out of the options to access them.
Conflict Chamber hasn't changed with Oblivion in how it chooses the Requisition Points for you. That is a pain if you aren't prepared for it. But to be fair, Conflict Chamber hasn't had some of the issues with Themes that War Room 2 had, including allowing an illegal number of other faction models in the Llaelese Resistance Theme (just made a list which allowed 2 Trencher units and a Choir of Menoth), and that's been an issue since LR was released. Flame in the Darkness is worse, since you can take 2 Cygnar Jacks AND 2 Khador Jacks, with no limit of how many of those two you take, despite the Theme Force only allowing up to 2 Cygnar OR Khador Jacks.
As for getting the rules with it... accessing the rules on my phone through War Room is annoying. If it is not pulling up the list when I don't want it to, it takes its sweet time in responding to loading and resizing. This is with a fresh phone!
Admittedly, I do see a lot of my local fellows using it to keep track of damage in their games, but I found that process to be annoying taking too many steps to resolve when I last tried it.
|
|
|
Post by dogganmguest on Oct 27, 2019 21:50:47 GMT
For what it’s worth re: War Room 2 versus Conflict Chamber: I have only ever experienced a single actual bug in WR2, and that was with a 500-ish point Unbound list, so hardly commonplace. The random listbuilding goofs happen everywhere. I know I’ve hit a few in Conflict Chamber. Personally, I have found Conflict Chamber harder to use. I disliked the way it automatically chose the free models prior to Oblivion (disclosure: haven’t tried post-Oblivion) and I know I saw plenty of weird PC miscalculations that occurred when repeatedly adding and subtracting items from a list. All of which is to say: Conflict Chamber is not bug-free or perfect. We should remember that when discussing the merits. Is the addition of full-on rules and guaranteed lifetime updates (above and beyond list-building capabilities) worth the price of admission for WR2? It is for me, and for pretty much everyone else I have ever encountered. Do you find that people use the free solutions over War Room 2? I remember that CC has bugs. That's why I said the CC guy is better at squashing bugs. If you report a bug to him, it gets fixed. Sometimes within hours. I have personally reported a WR2 bug that took months to get resolved (it considered having both Saeryn and Rhyas in a two caster list invalid). The idea that you've only seen a single bug in WR2 suggests to me that either you haven't used it a lot, or you are not very perceptive. There have been numerous bugs for years, including the already-mentioned PDF problem - every rule in the index takes you to the page before the one it should. A basic off-by-one error, probably the easiest bug you could ask for to fix, and yet it has persisted since the feature was first added. You've never encountered this, despite full rules being one of your preferred features? To answer your final question, I dislike using WR2 so much that I wrote my own program to pull cards from the card database instead. That way I can read cards when I need to, and just use CC for list building. It is more compact, streamlined and easier to use for that task.
|
|
|
Post by dogganmguest on Oct 27, 2019 22:11:12 GMT
Yep, that’s me, self-righteous! Acknowledging you have a problem is the first step to recovery. But, I’ve gotta admit, you’re right, guys! Nobody has EVER (Warmachine black & white Prime) released a suboptimal product and, through the long-term support (Prime Remix) and the dedication of fans (MK II) ever iterated to a better product (MK III). I mean that is crazy! Who ever heard of such a ridiculous idea?! Obviously buying imperfect products would only encourage the company to keep making the exact same products! There’s no way they’d ever listen to customers who ask for improvements, or ever consider changing things on their own initiative! I'm stunned that you might actually consider this a similar situation. If PP released Prime with whole pages missing, a backstory of "gosh these guys like to fight", and minis that disintegrated when they got wet, would you have "stuck with it" hoping for things to improve? People obviously saw value in the first edition - they saw a world with potential they liked, model designs that appealed to them, rules and an attitude that attracted them after being called WAACI AM A HOMOPHOBEs or whatever. There was value present in the first impressions, even if it had problems. If there's something enjoyable at the core, you can stick with it and see whether it improves or gets worse. When the entire package is a mess from soup to nuts as it was with Tactics, it's an entirely different proposition.
|
|
|
Post by Charistoph on Oct 28, 2019 2:10:31 GMT
Yeah, Tactics. It never really felt completely like Warmachine. It got the Mk 2 Focus system right, but it used the Mk 1 point system and the units operated more like CoI than like Warmachine, even being purchased like them for the off stuff. That's just the base mechanics which kind of fell flat and got worse when compared to Mk 3. That doesn't include the buggy mess that it is still in where it crashes at random moments.
Campaign-wise, it made a serious error, in that it only gave you one. Great if you play Cygnar, but what if you prefer the Motherland? What if you'd rather be Necromantic Cryx or go on Crusade for Menoth? Nope, go to the Multiplayer area. Now, they probably ran out of time, but that's as much a management issue as are the bugs that came with the game. This is also evidenced by the fact that the "cinematics" were just camera pans around mannequins.
Will PP clear another WMH game? Possibly, but it may take a few years. GW tried that method, and barely got anything from it, with Dawn of War being their best success, but also got nailed with Warhammer: Age of Reckoning (which had great mechanics and stability, but the population got bogged down in to one single area). Nowadays, they are bassicly handing it to anyone who has an interesting premise. With that you get crap like a few of the cell phone games, but also a few good ones like Vermintide.
|
|
|
Post by streetpizza on Oct 28, 2019 15:16:22 GMT
Yeah, Tactics. It never really felt completely like Warmachine. It got the Mk 2 Focus system right, but it used the Mk 1 point system and the units operated more like CoI than like Warmachine, even being purchased like them for the off stuff. That's just the base mechanics which kind of fell flat and got worse when compared to Mk 3. That doesn't include the buggy mess that it is still in where it crashes at random moments. Campaign-wise, it made a serious error, in that it only gave you one. Great if you play Cygnar, but what if you prefer the Motherland? What if you'd rather be Necromantic Cryx or go on Crusade for Menoth? Nope, go to the Multiplayer area. Now, they probably ran out of time, but that's as much a management issue as are the bugs that came with the game. This is also evidenced by the fact that the "cinematics" were just camera pans around mannequins. Will PP clear another WMH game? Possibly, but it may take a few years. GW tried that method, and barely got anything from it, with Dawn of War being their best success, but also got nailed with Warhammer: Age of Reckoning (which had great mechanics and stability, but the population got bogged down in to one single area). Nowadays, they are bassicly handing it to anyone who has an interesting premise. With that you get crap like a few of the cell phone games, but also a few good ones like Vermintide. Dawn of war was great but their best success by far was Total War: Warhammer. Established studio re-skinning one of their marquee games to fit in the warhammer fantasy setting turned out to be exactly what players wanted. Both total war fans and warhammer fans were thrilled. I would be stoked to see something similar for war machine. Either the total war treatment or an RTS game would be great. Even the dynasty warriors clone type game would really fit this setting. The biggest mistake was trying to replicate the table top on a computer screen. Leave the table top to the table top and just do something original within the setting.
|
|
marke
Junior Strategist
Posts: 187
|
Post by marke on Oct 28, 2019 15:57:28 GMT
To some of the earlier comments: download Wyrd's new app for Malifaux. It's TOTALLY free and awesome. You can even choose not to download the whole card database in order to keep the app small. It tracks scenarios, schemes, wounds, conditions, scoring etc during the game. Everything. It has excellent online playmode, nice reference feature, access to news and the rulebook etc...
Even if you don't play Malifaux, check it out. THAT is how you do an app. Oh yeah, did I mention it's free? Well, it's free.
|
|
|
Post by coolguyclay on Oct 28, 2019 18:41:09 GMT
To some of the earlier comments: download Wyrd's new app for Malifaux. It's TOTALLY free and awesome. You can even choose not to download the whole card database in order to keep the app small. It tracks scenarios, schemes, wounds, conditions, scoring etc during the game. Everything. It has excellent online playmode, nice reference feature, access to news and the rulebook etc... Even if you don't play Malifaux, check it out. THAT is how you do an app. Oh yeah, did I mention it's free? Well, it's free. Not meaning to get too off topic, but this post is true. The app is really good - for browsing, building and even playing (though I do like physical cards/tokens a little more myself). Kudos to those devs! And Wyrd, who may have issues of their own but that app is not one of them : ) One other comment on app development, is that while many apps exist and are free, development of a good app is not a commodity for a company. Typically quality development costs money, and sub-optimal development still costs a business $$$. It's not a simple thing to "just build another" or "just start over". As fans, we sometimes hope for that hero dev, the guy/gal with a passion for our game system AND who works for free. (Had a great Android app to track a Star Wars Imperial Assault campaign, really a gem : ) I don't know the past or future plans from PP, whether good or bad decisions were made with Warroom or Tactics, but I do know that a lot went into the process, and a lot would go into doing it again. What more than the News Blogs and Dev Chats would help give confidence in the direction of Privateer Press? I know we're reading into actions/decisions they make or have made. Do we need more insider scoops? Or would it just be doom and gloom for 50% either way?
|
|
|
Post by Charistoph on Oct 28, 2019 23:33:42 GMT
Dawn of war was great but their best success by far was Total War: Warhammer. Established studio re-skinning one of their marquee games to fit in the warhammer fantasy setting turned out to be exactly what players wanted. Both total war fans and warhammer fans were thrilled. I would be stoked to see something similar for war machine. Either the total war treatment or an RTS game would be great. Even the dynasty warriors clone type game would really fit this setting. The biggest mistake was trying to replicate the table top on a computer screen. Leave the table top to the table top and just do something original within the setting. No arguments from me, save timing. Dawn of War's success is basically one of the things that lead to Total Warhammer becoming a thing, but they are two different generations of GW's licensing system. Total Warhammer belongs to the same generation that brought out Blood Bowl and Vermintide, which is why I didn't include them in the same boat. Total Warmachine would be rather difficult to properly duplicate. The Focus system would be really hard to properly handle as smoothly as the Tabletop, or even Tactics, handles it. Fury on the Hordes side would be far easier to manage (but would still require a little micromanagement). Focus would have to be changed to being closer to the Empower spell than anything else, and allowing the AI to handle many of the decisions could be a challenge. The infantry, Cavalry, Artillery, and even Marshalling would be relatively easy to manage. Another alternative would be either a Baldur's Gate or Dragon Age version of Iron Kingdoms, and could really work out in an interesting way, if done properly. It could handle many of the aspects of the Focus system a lot easier than Total Warmachine could, as well as provide interesting storylines.
|
|
bacon
Junior Strategist
Posts: 134
|
Post by bacon on Oct 29, 2019 0:29:13 GMT
Just putting this out there but dawn if war 2's mechanics always felt kind of reminiscent of warmachine with the hyper focus on your hero and often building your army around them.
Imo if PP was ever interested in making a video game in the Iron Kingdoms then an RPG would probably be best. It's a lot easier to world build in an rpg compared to a strategy game which is particularly important for a property like iron kingdoms that isn't as well known as Warhammer.
|
|