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Post by piedpiperwtf on Apr 19, 2017 23:23:10 GMT
The rules were posted on Warmachine Houston Facebook page earliest today and am really excited about the ease of scoring. And the look of the new scenarios, very excited.
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Post by piedpiperwtf on Apr 20, 2017 0:53:43 GMT
Notice the tip below each scenario...Only the active player scores if multiple players control the same zone or flag.
Scoring is going to be a lot higher for both sides.
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Post by piedpiperwtf on Apr 20, 2017 0:55:10 GMT
Kill box is at 10" now.
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Post by malnorma on Apr 20, 2017 1:03:17 GMT
Notice the tip below each scenario...Only the active player scores if multiple players control the same zone or flag. Scoring is going to be a lot higher for both sides. Maybe, but not because of this. This is exactly the same as previous steamrollers. If someone contests your flag or zone, you don't control it. The only way both players might control a zone at the end of the turn is with their casters, because casters don't contest.
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Post by malnorma on Apr 20, 2017 1:12:01 GMT
Kill box is in every non-Rumble scenario, and seems less relevant, as player 2 only has to microscopically step out of their deployment zone to avoid giving the points away. One possible trap for the unwary is that many scorable zones cross the kill box line to the sides.
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Whiskie
Junior Strategist
Posts: 288
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Post by Whiskie on Apr 20, 2017 3:55:01 GMT
Played two games with new SR.
Really bad time. I was playing:
Fyanna2 - Oracles of Annihilation - Succubus (free) - 2x Angelius - Seraph - 3x Neraph - Bloodseer - Naga
Sorceress & Hellion (free) 2x Forsaken (free) 2x Shepherd Spell Martyr Objective: Arcane Wonder (I was worried about encountering the Zaal2 player at my local store)
First game was Spread the Net against Karchev 9 Marauders + 1 Juggernaut. He also got a couple free Forge Seers, a Widowmaker Marksman and had a unit of Mechanics.
I went first. Didn't commit until beginning of my third turn. Went in hard, killed one jack and scored in my zone. Popped Feat. Karchev deals some damage to different beasts across my army but doesn't get much done. I go in hard again and kill a couple more jacks. He still has 7 heavies left left. I score again. At this point I'm totally screwed. Karchev Feats and beasts start dying left and right. I'm barely able to hang on to the center zone and my rectangle zone. We continue a long, slogging game. But I just can't out-attrition 10 heavies that are this much better than mine while also costing fewer points. I end up conceding when my last heavy dies.
We talked after the game. Opponent and I agreed that I never had a chance. With no way to win quickly on scenario and being vastly outnumbered on heavies the only option is to assassinate Karchev which opponent will never allow to happen. Neraphs have zero chance of taking that caster down and he won't let me get onto Karchev with Angels so it felt like there was no path to victory. I'm totally open to suggestions here.
Second game is my same Fyanna2 list vs Zaal2 Immortal Spam. Scenario is Pit 2.0.
I go first. Beginning of my second turn I kill 11 Immortals and pop Feat. Opponent goes in and relies on Aura of Power to MAT fix. He doesn't manage to kill any heavies. He pops his own Feat.
Between the +5ARM from his Feat and the Agonizer debuff I struggle to kill much. I still manage to clean up most of another unit and score a point.
At this point he's just able to bury me in bodies. Clearing out my zone and scoring in it doesn't matter because I need to score six MORE points than him to claim a scenario victory. My list just runs out of steam after Feat turn as my squishy heavies just fold. I don't have enough models to sustain losses and continue to be relevant on attrition or to threaten an assassination. My opponent ends up clocking out but neither of us was playing very fast or being mindful of the clock. The game ends and I'm on 7CP to my opponent's 5. If opponent had played faster he easily would have tabled me except for my caster and a random solo or two.
So in conclusion: SR2017 scenarios are *really* hard to win. You can't even hope to quickly clear out zones and end the game on scenario early. It feels like the two relevant win conditions are assassination and attrition. Legion happens to be really good at assassination and incredibly awful at attrition, so I feel that this will probably shoehorn us into an assassination playstyle even more than has tended to be the case in MK3. I guess that means the Lylyths and Vayl2 will be go-to Warlocks for us. With the sheer number of Shield Guards available in the game I'm not sure how the Lylyths will ever succeed at winning on assassination via ranged attacks. Vayl2 can always angle for spell assassinations at least, though the Arcane Wonder objective is a much more attractive choice now than it was previously.
Not too pleased with how Legion feels in SR2017 so far. However I'm going to write some more assassination/attrition lists and report back with findings later.
EDIT: Here are the list ideas I had initially to try playing these new scenarios.
Legion Army - 75 / 75 points
(Thagrosh 1) Thagrosh, Prophet of Everblight [+28]
- Azrael [21]
- Carnivean [19]
- Proteus [19]
- Typhon [24]
The Forsaken [4]
The Forsaken [4]
Hellmouth [6]
Hellmouth [6]
Armory (Steamroller) [0]
Legion Army - 75 / 75 points
(Lylyth 2) Lylyth, Shadow of Everblight [+28]
- Naga Nightlurker [8]
- Nephilim Bolt Thrower [11]
- Ravagore [19]
- Typhon [24]
- Succubus [4]
Blighted Nyss Shepherd [1]
Blighted Nyss Shepherd [1]
Blighted Nyss Sorceress & Hellion [6]
Strider Deathstalker [4]
Strider Deathstalker [4]
The Forsaken [4]
The Forsaken [4]
Strider Scouts [9]
- Strider Scout Officer & Musician [4]
Fuel Cache (Steamroller) [0]
It feels bad not running either list in theme but the Hellmouths feel borderline mandatory with Thagrosh1 since he just isn't any good at spreading out and the scenarios are oriented very widely now. Maybe there's a list where I just play Typhon and 3x Carniveans plus some Hex Hunters or something in Oracles of Annihilation. Will keep that idea in mind for later.
Lylyth2 list is more attrition-focused as well. The Feat lets her get ahead on attrition early. Striders are actually pretty good with her Feat and they can rip through even high ARM infantry like Dawnguard Sentinels, Iron Fangs and Immortals when the Hellion drops Blight Storm on the offending models so the Scouts can auto-point them with each hit. No idea if this pairing will work but that's what testing is for!
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Post by malnorma on Apr 20, 2017 4:21:10 GMT
I want to 'like' the post for being a good post, but I don't like the pattern getting worse...
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Lanz
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Lanz on Apr 20, 2017 8:27:29 GMT
Very excited about 2017 personally. I think the stronger terrain enforcement works in our favor. Will need to get games in to see for sure.
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Post by Korianneder on Apr 20, 2017 12:26:40 GMT
Whiskie, I think even in SR2016 Karchev with 10 jacks is a difficult thing for us to handle with beast heavy lists because of how much more cost effective their jacks are compared to our beasts. You have to try to play a hit and run game against them with guns or out of activation movements. Even in SR2016 it was difficult to outscore them fast enough. SR2017 is arguably better for us because we're a very mobile army so we can play further back with our guns without auto-losing on scenario and then once the enemy army has been worn down enough we can go in and control multiple scenario elements in a turn. I still don't have a good list that would reliably deal with 10 khador heavies though.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Apr 20, 2017 13:13:08 GMT
I've looked at them and I am highly confused. With swapping which models score which zones and then seeing the layouts... I think I would have liked it the other way around. (That's what CID is for but i don't think they will make that change).
With circle zones being big enough to fit a unit and spread out, I feel like it will be near impossible to keep that one, or at most two, zones clear of contesting models. But if it were the rectangles the area covered is smaller and to me seemingly more easily managed. But time will tell I guess.
I can't say anything stands out to me on how to deal with heavy spam, as the new SR in no way discourages it. It slightly enables infantry to do something but as Whiskie mentioned, with no way to ensure wining on scenario you're not gaining enough of a leg up by taking infantry when you can brick up with jacks and out attrition the enemy instead.
I'd love to see the rules worked that models that can't score in a zone, can't contest said zone. So you can't park jacks in a circle and screw over all the infantry from scoring, and vice versa. But I'm sure people would explode over that.
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Post by piedpiperwtf on Apr 20, 2017 15:04:03 GMT
I've looked at them and I am highly confused. With swapping which models score which zones and then seeing the layouts... I think I would have liked it the other way around. (That's what CID is for but i don't think they will make that change). With circle zones being big enough to fit a unit and spread out, I feel like it will be near impossible to keep that one, or at most two, zones clear of contesting models. But if it were the rectangles the area covered is smaller and to me seemingly more easily managed. But time will tell I guess. I can't say anything stands out to me on how to deal with heavy spam, as the new SR in no way discourages it. It slightly enables infantry to do something but as Whiskie mentioned, with no way to ensure wining on scenario you're not gaining enough of a leg up by taking infantry when you can brick up with jacks and out attrition the enemy instead. I'd love to see the rules worked that models that can't score in a zone, can't contest said zone. So you can't park jacks in a circle and screw over all the infantry from scoring, and vice versa. But I'm sure people would explode over that. some zones look close enough together you could toe two zones with a small bases caster simultaneously..... Furthermore the twins could possibly control three zones themselves.
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izrian
Junior Strategist
Posts: 107
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Post by izrian on Apr 20, 2017 16:41:43 GMT
I played 2 games of breakdown last night, against Khador and Cryx. First game was agisnt Cryx running with coven, w/ Canker, nightmare, bathroom, and DJ. With some bane knights, and the new solo. I ran this into it.
Theme: No Theme Selected 75 / 75 Army
Kallus, Devastation of Everblight - WB: +28 - Succubus - PC: 4 - Blightbringer - PC: 38 (Battlegroup Points Used: 28) - Raek - PC: 8 - Raek - PC: 8 - Raek - PC: 8
Blighted Nyss Warlord - PC: 5 Blighted Nyss Shepherd - PC: 1 Blighted Nyss Shepherd - PC: 1
Blackfrost Shard - Sevryn, Rhylyss & Vysarr: 9 Blighted Nyss Swordsmen - Leader & 9 Grunts: 15 - Blighted Nyss Swordsmen Abbot & Champion - Abbot & Champion: 6
Ended up doing fairly well, raeks managed to cause enough discord in the back to keep the jacks busy while catching everything on fire. Of course by bottom of 3 my raeks had all be slaughtered. But my swordsman were able to clean up Bathroom, DJ, and nightmare while exchanging models with bane knights after UA had been shot off by BB. Literraly by Top of 5 I had scored 3 points and my opponient had scored 4. And it was down to kallus, 4 swordsman, and BB, against coven, Canker, and the new solo. He managed to load up canker and take down BB on a charge... stupid badass 9 point model argh! So charge Kallus in a blaze of glory, almost take down coven. But lost to assassination. Next turn.
Agent Kador, time was running short so we both played super aggressive. Basically came down to slugging out for each other casters again. By turn 3 I managed to get 2 raeks on scorsch, 1 killed her war dog, than caught her on fire. Other managed to back arc head butt. Charge in Kallus to clear out a few.models to open a lane, pop feat and in charges Blightbringer for free, at a MIGHTY, 13" Threat. To squish a knocked down Scorsch.
2017SR for legion is basically. Make the assassination work some how.
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izrian
Junior Strategist
Posts: 107
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Post by izrian on Apr 20, 2017 16:46:46 GMT
I've looked at them and I am highly confused. With swapping which models score which zones and then seeing the layouts... I think I would have liked it the other way around. (That's what CID is for but i don't think they will make that change). With circle zones being big enough to fit a unit and spread out, I feel like it will be near impossible to keep that one, or at most two, zones clear of contesting models. But if it were the rectangles the area covered is smaller and to me seemingly more easily managed. But time will tell I guess. I can't say anything stands out to me on how to deal with heavy spam, as the new SR in no way discourages it. It slightly enables infantry to do something but as Whiskie mentioned, with no way to ensure wining on scenario you're not gaining enough of a leg up by taking infantry when you can brick up with jacks and out attrition the enemy instead. I'd love to see the rules worked that models that can't score in a zone, can't contest said zone. So you can't park jacks in a circle and screw over all the infantry from scoring, and vice versa. But I'm sure people would explode over that. some zones look close enough together you could toe two zones with a small bases caster simultaneously..... Furthermore the twins could possibly control three zones themselves. Good call!! Going to have to experiment with this! 😈
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Post by piedpiperwtf on Apr 20, 2017 18:23:16 GMT
This list seems relevant to the new scenarios as well as the jack spam issue.
War Room Army
Legion of Everblight - twins children
Theme: Children of the Dragon 2 / 2 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army
Saeryn & Rhyas, Talons of Everblight - WB: +24 - Saeryn & Rhyas, Talons of Everblight (Cont.) - Zuriel - PC: 18 (Battlegroup Points Used: 18) - Nephilim Soldier - PC: 9 (Battlegroup Points Used: 6) - Nephilim Soldier - PC: 9 - Nephilim Protector - PC: 10 - Shredder - PC: 4 - Shredder - PC: 4 - Harrier - PC: 3
Blighted Nyss Warlord - PC: 5 Blighted Nyss Warlord - PC: 5 Blighted Nyss Shepherd - PC: 1 Blighted Nyss Shepherd - PC: 1
Blighted Nyss Swordsmen - Leader & 9 Grunts: 15 - Blighted Nyss Swordsmen Abbot & Champion - Abbot & Champion: 0 Blighted Nyss Swordsmen - Leader & 9 Grunts: 15 - Blighted Nyss Swordsmen Abbot & Champion - Abbot & Champion: 0
THEME: Children of the Dragon ---
GENERATED : 04/20/2017 13:21:54 BUILD ID : 2039.17-03-16
Paired with this Vs infantry spam.
War Room Army
Legion of Everblight - l2 row
Theme: Ravens of War 2 / 2 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army
Lylyth, Shadow of Everblight - WB: +28 - Nephilim Bolt Thrower - PC: 11 (Battlegroup Points Used: 11) - Naga Nightlurker - PC: 8 (Battlegroup Points Used: 8) - Teraph - PC: 10 (Battlegroup Points Used: 9) - Teraph - PC: 10
Strider Deathstalker - PC: 0 Strider Deathstalker - PC: 0 The Forsaken - PC: 4 Grotesque Assassin - PC: 4 The Forsaken - PC: 4 Annyssa Ryvaal - PC: 8
Blighted Nyss Raptors - Leader & 4 Grunts: 18 Strider Scouts - Leader & 5 Grunts: 9 - Strider Scout Officer & Musician - Officer & Musician: 4 Grotesque Banshees - Leader & 9 Grunts: 13
THEME: Ravens of War ---
GENERATED : 04/20/2017 13:29:50 BUILD ID : 2039.17-03-16
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Whiskie
Junior Strategist
Posts: 288
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Post by Whiskie on Apr 20, 2017 19:14:12 GMT
Whiskie, I think even in SR2016 Karchev with 10 jacks is a difficult thing for us to handle with beast heavy lists because of how much more cost effective their jacks are compared to our beasts. You have to try to play a hit and run game against them with guns or out of activation movements. Even in SR2016 it was difficult to outscore them fast enough. SR2017 is arguably better for us because we're a very mobile army so we can play further back with our guns without auto-losing on scenario and then once the enemy army has been worn down enough we can go in and control multiple scenario elements in a turn. I still don't have a good list that would reliably deal with 10 khador heavies though. 10 heavies is difficult to deal with in SR2016 for sure. However in the game I played against jack spam yesterday I was able to hit a total of 6 control points which is more than enough to end the game. The point is in SR2016 it was difficult to win on scenario against 10 Khador jacks. In 2017 it's essentially impossible. We don't have guns that are cost effective enough to attrition 10 heavies down to a point where we can make a comeback late game on scenario. Our guns are either POW10's meant for killing infantry (Archers, Scouts, Deathstalkers, Raptors), medium POW stuff that can nickle and dime heavies (Naga, Teraph, Seraph) or high POW stuff that can deal legitimate damage (Azrael, Typhon, Ravagores, Bolt Throwers). All of our high POW guns are either on expensive heavy chassis or are on the super fury inefficient light Bolt Thrower. Point is there's no way in hell you're going to be able to shoot down more than 1-2 heavies before you're forced to commit into melee and then you quickly become overwhelmed by the sheer number of hard hitting, massive ARM jacks. So if you can't scenario and you can't attrition the only option is to assassinate. Which is fine but opponents will realize that the only way they're likely to lose is on caster kill so they'll just play extra safe. Camp an extra point of Focus or Fury or two, take that extra Shield Guard in their list or just play a super tanky caster like Karchev, Butcher3 etc. Plus there are themes to consider which can either grant Sac Pawn, give a ton of Shield Guards like the CoC one etc. I'm trying not to be all doom and gloom, I really am. But at the moment things are looking really grim. I haven't given up yet though, I'm planning to experiment with new lists. Would be really great to see more people post their battle reports here so we can try to solve this issue.
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