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Post by paradox on Mar 30, 2019 23:02:15 GMT
Honestly the place to go is to nerf LotF, since he swings attrition so hard in favour of the DH player. His identity has always been (and the draw to play him is) his infantry-threshing fire-and-forget nature. The problem is that he's murdering things he shouldn't be murdering - taking out a full ARM 18 heavy, threatening assassinations, I've even claimed a full unit of ARM 19 Chosen. That's not OK. Answer is simple, really. Kill death-powered, maybe up his ARM a smidge accordingly, and call it a day. He will still do great things into infantry, he will threaten zero-camp casters, and he might kill 1 or 2 high-ARM infantry like chosen, but no more. Now you have a model that is still fun and compelling without being oppressive. LotF can lose Death Powered and pick up +1PS and +1 DEF. PS14 on the sword makes him work on light and medium targets, and 13/16 8 wounds with healing options is solid. You can still ridicu-buff him, but it helps curb the excesses.
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Post by Gamingdevil on Apr 1, 2019 5:58:19 GMT
I would agree on LotF losing Death Powered. ARM 19, Stealth, 8 boxes that threatens from down town is really hard to kill and the added strength in combination with buying or boosting is what really lets him punch way above his weight class. Also agree that there would have a to be a slight bump in stats to compensate though.
Then just make the croc pot Friendly Faction for corpses and call it a day? Really, it having such good support abilities (Puppet Master, "Gallows") on top of having the corpses to hand out to anyone, where most Minions would be restricted to FF, doesn't really make sense.
Then it's just the Well or Orboros that might be problematic? But that hasn't hit the meta yet, so will have to wait and see.
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Post by Trollock on Apr 1, 2019 11:42:03 GMT
I would agree on LotF losing Death Powered. ARM 19, Stealth, 8 boxes that threatens from down town is really hard to kill and the added strength in combination with buying or boosting is what really lets him punch way above his weight class. Also agree that there would have a to be a slight bump in stats to compensate though. Then just make the croc pot Friendly Faction for corpses and call it a day? Really, it having such good support abilities (Puppet Master, "Gallows") on top of having the corpses to hand out to anyone, where most Minions would be restricted to FF, doesn't really make sense. Then it's just the Well or Orboros that might be problematic? But that hasn't hit the meta yet, so will have to wait and see. Feels a bit sad though that I (and every other circle player) has brought a croc pot cause it is mandatory, and then it would be virtually useless over night. That is just the type of nerf that we want to avoid, right? Better to tone things down than to make them absolutely worthless. I still want LotF (and my crock pot) to be a valid option. It just shouldnt be auto include. (and yes, i know Tomazs is using the pot in BoO with WW even though it cant give out corpses, but hes like a savant miracle child or something )
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Post by Gamingdevil on Apr 1, 2019 11:49:55 GMT
(and yes, i know Tomazs is using the pot in BoO with WW even though it cant give out corpses, but hes like a savant miracle child or something ) It's Puppet Master on a stick, with a boostable gun that's also a threat extender. It will compete for the Minion slot sure, but it should still be usable, just not an auto-include. The easy access to corpses without actually killing things is part of what makes LotF and some of the other Tharn elements feel so oppressive currently. But sure, maybe 1 hurdle at a time. Regardless, PP probably doesn't read this and this is never gonna happen
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snap
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Post by snap on Apr 1, 2019 12:05:24 GMT
Yeah making it friendly faction would mess a lot of people's weeks up and have them shouting for their money back.
LOTF needs toning down anyway so losing death powered would be my vote. I'm an advocate of not running the croc pot, simply because I find it more fun using attacks to generate corpses than magically putting them on my models. I find my games tend to be a little more even footed if I'm taking that into account. It also allows me a little more of a relevant second list which I like, instead of just steamrolling with Iona. Bri and Caul will still kill a heavy on IONA's feat turn with only 1 corpse on Caul so that's still really good. Also because they're so cheap, if the opponent sees only the one corpse on Caul then that opponent's target priority shifts over to the more expensive stuff. So there's that to consider too.
The well is a different story. I certainly think I'll be jumping on that bent AF bandwagon. It's just silly good and makes you kill your opponents stuff for corpses. Also costs and effective 5-6 points which puts it in line with the pot. Tharn lists would love a free whitemane. Very good indeed.
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Post by rezfon on Apr 2, 2019 9:49:14 GMT
I like an idea I saw posted on the Circle facebook group. Lotf should directly face whatever he hits with the bird.
I think there are plenty lists that just wreck dev host lists, but even when I'm playing a bad matchup I can still fall back trying a lotf assassination. You can try position in a way to stop him landing, but that requires a certain number of models to stop just one and that formation then makes it easier for ravager overtakes. You can take shield guard, but you need a minimum of two to get him away. If he's forced to face what he hits, shield guard neuters him and forces harder choices. It still keeps his combat potency against single models, but makes it a lot harder to use blood reaper to the max if you use the bird and makes if easier for an opponent to position using less models.
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Post by paradox on Apr 2, 2019 10:58:01 GMT
I like an idea I saw posted on the Circle facebook group. Lotf should directly face whatever he hits with the bird. I think there are plenty lists that just wreck dev host lists, but even when I'm playing a bad matchup I can still fall back trying a lotf assassination. You can try position in a way to stop him landing, but that requires a certain number of models to stop just one and that formation then makes it easier for ravager overtakes. You can take shield guard, but you need a minimum of two to get him away. If he's forced to face what he hits, shield guard neuters him and forces harder choices. It still keeps his combat potency against single models, but makes it a lot harder to use blood reaper to the max if you use the bird and makes if easier for an opponent to position using less models. That would be a poor fix and woukd mainly result in mini games of proxymachine each turn.
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Post by jisidro on Apr 2, 2019 11:27:06 GMT
Why poor? It would reduce the impact of the 10" place immensely which is the biggest complaint about the LotF...
A friend suggests the LotF should be placed in the arc it shoots to, so forward arc if it shoots from the forward arc. I'm not sure how that would interact with a shield guard but it give more freedom than the direct facing while allowing for a way to stop the LotF to gain range by placing itself in the back of whatever it shoots.
It's always a positioning game with him. Shield walls become squares when he is around.
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snap
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Post by snap on Apr 2, 2019 11:50:17 GMT
Personally I think putting a restriction on the place is nerfing his entire design. You could just get rid of one or two of his rules to similar effect.
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Post by rezfon on Apr 2, 2019 12:07:12 GMT
Personally I think putting a restriction on the place is nerfing his entire design. You could just get rid of one or two of his rules to similar effect. Is it though? The current place rules mean that it can effectively ignore whatever it was originally targeting, it bypasses tech like stealth, it makes colossals and gargantuans a liability as it gives him even greater additional threat range, it doesn't matter what the ranged defense of a model is as long as there's one nearby with lower. Every lock/caster kill I've got with him has been down to other models being nearby, I've never once targeted a lock/caster directly.
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whydak
Junior Strategist
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Post by whydak on Apr 2, 2019 12:11:05 GMT
Personally I think putting a restriction on the place is nerfing his entire design. You could just get rid of one or two of his rules to similar effect. Is it though? The current place rules mean that it can effectively ignore whatever it was originally targeting, it bypasses tech like stealth, it makes colossals and gargantuans a liability as it gives him even greater additional threat range, it doesn't matter what the ranged defense of a model is as long as there's one nearby with lower. Every lock/caster kill I've got with him has been down to other models being nearby, I've never once targeted a lock/caster directly. If he would stop kiling casters there is no problem with placement restrictions. 14/14 guys with no focus/transfer should care were they are but some tougher statlines shouldn't be thretened by free solo from 19".
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snap
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Post by snap on Apr 2, 2019 12:42:25 GMT
Is it though? The current place rules mean that it can effectively ignore whatever it was originally targeting, it bypasses tech like stealth, it makes colossals and gargantuans a liability as it gives him even greater additional threat range, it doesn't matter what the ranged defense of a model is as long as there's one nearby with lower. Every lock/caster kill I've got with him has been down to other models being nearby, I've never once targeted a lock/caster directly. If he would stop kiling casters there is no problem with placement restrictions. 14/14 guys with no focus/transfer should care were they are but some tougher statlines shouldn't be thretened by free solo from 19". Sounds like losing death powered solves it then. Pow 13 does 2 damage a hit to armour 18. The place effect facing rule would mean you couldn't fill him with corpses as easily meaning stuff like the croc pot is even more of a necessity. If you keep it as written, along with getting rid of death powered, the LOTF can do the thing he's mean't to do. Which is kill infantry and solos from odd angles.
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Post by rezfon on Apr 2, 2019 12:48:53 GMT
Is it though? The current place rules mean that it can effectively ignore whatever it was originally targeting, it bypasses tech like stealth, it makes colossals and gargantuans a liability as it gives him even greater additional threat range, it doesn't matter what the ranged defense of a model is as long as there's one nearby with lower. Every lock/caster kill I've got with him has been down to other models being nearby, I've never once targeted a lock/caster directly. If he would stop kiling casters there is no problem with placement restrictions. 14/14 guys with no focus/transfer should care were they are but some tougher statlines shouldn't be thretened by free solo from 19". but it's not really just one solo though, he doesn't do this all by himself, for that one combat action you are using 15pts worth of models: lotf, blood shaman and croc pot (if it becomes friendly only, that'll then cause people to swap to the well). His output could be reduced if the blood shaman Blood ritual could only target tharn models. I feel it's the DI reliability that makes him a true monster, it's helps reduce bad rolls quite a lot.
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Post by Gamingdevil on Apr 2, 2019 13:06:57 GMT
but it's not really just one solo though, he doesn't do this all by himself, for that one combat action you are using 15pts worth of models: lotf, blood shaman and croc pot (if it becomes friendly only, that'll then cause people to swap to the well). His output could be reduced if the blood shaman Blood ritual could only target tharn models. I feel it's the DI reliability that makes him a true monster, it's helps reduce bad rolls quite a lot. You're right, but the Spirit Cauldron does other things after topping off the LotF turn 1, and both the pot and shaman do more things than just enabling LotF. The main problem is that, as long as he's alive, anything on the table is liable to die or be seriously messed up by him. That's Butcher level board control, on a free solo.
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Post by rezfon on Apr 2, 2019 13:33:44 GMT
but it's not really just one solo though, he doesn't do this all by himself, for that one combat action you are using 15pts worth of models: lotf, blood shaman and croc pot (if it becomes friendly only, that'll then cause people to swap to the well). His output could be reduced if the blood shaman Blood ritual could only target tharn models. I feel it's the DI reliability that makes him a true monster, it's helps reduce bad rolls quite a lot. You're right, but the Spirit Cauldron does other things after topping off the LotF turn 1, and both the pot and shaman do more things than just enabling LotF. The main problem is that, as long as he's alive, anything on the table is liable to die or be seriously messed up by him. That's Butcher level board control, on a free solo. I don't think him being able to be taken as a free option affects this though, if he wasn't a free option he'd still be an auto pick. This power of board control also stems from the place effect and how much it bypasses list building strategy. The raven shot practically has ignore stealth, cover, concealment, range, only using one shield guard, defensive strike, shield wall etc. 10" is quite a long range on a place effect, if you target a garg/colossal you can reach something 18" away due to not having to face your target. Stones lost their ability to double port ages ago for good reason. Now lotf has the greatest potential threat range out of any circle model. The place can bypass a lot of list building made to stop him.
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