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Post by frumiousbandersnatch on Feb 24, 2019 3:49:17 GMT
I see more and more cries both locally and in the wider online community about how overtuned Tharn are. To what degree does this complaint ring true?
If you agree, then what is the problem? Is it LotF? Ravagers? Iona? Something else?
If you disagree explain why. What are the weaknesses of Tharn in terms of matchup and gameplay. Show that there's nothing special about them.
I'm interested in what everyone's thoughts are. I considered posting this in GD because I would like a variety of perspectives, but it is completely a Circle-centric topic.
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Post by paradox on Feb 24, 2019 5:37:11 GMT
Depends how many Tough checks you make, no?
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Post by Trollock on Feb 24, 2019 5:51:24 GMT
LotF is way over tuned, and him being on the table places a lot of mental strain on the opponent.
Iona is one of the few casters i have not played in tharn, but according to Bret Vogel she is super busted, and im not about to disagree with him on that point. He shouöd know 😅
Pther than that Tharn are just strong in to "everything". The same list can be strong in to both heavies, infantry and shooting. The list is strong independent of the caster, so even kaya 1 can play tharn just fine. Add a caster that actually supports the list and everything seems just a bit too strong. Not by much, and not so you auto win, but you seem to have the edge in most games.
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seul
Demo Gamer
Posts: 15
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Post by seul on Feb 24, 2019 13:12:09 GMT
Most lists have a few average models, while in DH, the models are mostly at the top of the power/cost curve. This is itself an advantage even if no individual model is above the curve compared to what is in the game.
Heart Eater and starting with corpses makes for super versatility. When you need Mat, Damage, or additional attack you get the choice of doing it.
Everything in the list has multiple attacks, trading up is easier, and losing something isn't as costly.
As for individual models/units, it's easy to see how they are at the top of the curve. for example, Ravagers are 6 models +ua for 20 points, while most other (played) medium based are 5 models + ua for ~20 points
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maffo
Baby's First Wargame
Posts: 4
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Post by maffo on Feb 24, 2019 21:36:48 GMT
It’s the synergies that does it. Ravagers are an ok unit to start with, but not more. Add UA, starting corpse, no KD from shaman/caster and pot and suddenly they are really, really good at allmost everything.
I think it’s mainly the corpse generating that brakes things. Starting corpse is really strong but the possibility to add more corpses with pot or well where they will be needed makes B&C and lotf powerhouses. Ot makes deathwolves really great too, but not givning free points hurts them a bit. Even a lonely ravager with full corpses can easily remove a whole unit himself with the minifeat, and that ravager can be boosted by multiple casters, giving more power to buffs like stoneskin, stormrager or ionas feat by making more attacks from less models.
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Post by streetpizza on Feb 25, 2019 4:21:26 GMT
The tharn CID was a bit a of a typical PP over correction. Everything in that theme was under performing so they went to the wall adding things. Luckily the community caught some of the egregious adds but some others slipped through.
LotF needed help big time. Thing is he didn't need a ton of help he just needed to be able to function which meant bird+thresher in a reasonable area to self generate corpses. Instead PP releases the croc pot which is a pretty big buff to circle in general and thought he needed death powered on top of already reasonable stats and the blood shaman with DI for extra icing on the cake. So instead of a good solo that threatens back line support reasonably well we get a monster that can remove heavies or battle engines by himself after buffs.
Ravagers were okay but with relatively low pow attacks were shadows of themselves from their MKII versions. Loss of AD and brutal charge for only gaining the mini feat and tough was harsh in the transition and the community poo pooed them accordingly. All they realistically needed was brutal charge to allow them some variety in the targets they could hunt. They got that + rapid healing + no knockdown + a starting corpse + DI on a model if they want it. That minifeat now becomes something back breaking and they're functionally immune to small arms fire.
Brigid and Caul are fine. They're a high risk high reward unit with a very telegraphed damage spike.
Bloodpack actually came out where they need to be after dropping 3" repo. Be very happy Iona at least lost map wide dodge. Losing DI for beasts was in hindsight probably the right call. Parry on trackers would've been the most broken thing ever so at least that didn't make the cut.
From my games with Tharn the thing I fear most is reasonably high powered accurate shooting which buys my opponent an alpha on the ravagers. Funny thing is the factions that can do this have been pushed out of competition because they have trouble with the higher arm high box spam lists from other factions. If people start to realize that Cygnar, Ret, and Crucible Guard can actually handle Tharn then we might see a big meta shift. Then again its too bad for them that Kreuger2 bones is also a thing. So who knows ...
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Post by Gamingdevil on Feb 25, 2019 9:13:12 GMT
From my games with Tharn the thing I fear most is reasonably high powered accurate shooting which buys my opponent an alpha on the ravagers. Funny thing is the factions that can do this have been pushed out of competition because they have trouble with the higher arm high box spam lists from other factions. If people start to realize that Cygnar, Ret, and Crucible Guard can actually handle Tharn then we might see a big meta shift. Then again its too bad for them that Kreuger2 bones is also a thing. So who knows ... I'm not so sure if that actually "solves" it. I played a couple of games into Tharn yesterday. On of my lists had decent shooting, but a savvy opponent will give you a few Ravagers while the other hide behind a forest. The Well shooting and the threat of the Lord of the Feast was also a large detriment. This was a game into Baldur 1, so his feat is also absolutely back breaking. In this game Lord of the Feast got 2 corpses and took half a grid off the Kraken. There was really nothing I could do about that. So, from the other side of the table, I don't think the matchup is unwinnable, but I do think that individual models are slightly overtuned to the point that all together it becomes a problem, especially with a caster, like Baldur 1 that can fix their perceived weaknesses. Most of the models, especially male Tharn have a ton of rules, that seem to basically be tacked on. They have, baseline, Tough, Rapid Healing, Brutal Charge, Tree Walker, Pathfinder and the ability to buy or boost with corpses. There are elements available to have them hit even harder and many that can give them access to no-knockdown. Then add in access to corpses on demand to make an individual model hit exactly as hard as you want it and where you want it, and it starts to look like there aren't any things they can't play into. They maul infantry with buying attacks on RNG 2 or they can wail on heavies by boosting, especially since the popular casters can further boost their output (Stone Skin, Iona feat) Brigid & Caul probably are fine, but again have lots of rules that do make them into powerhouses for not a lot of points. The fact that the Well only takes a single point of damage to boost also seems a bit much when compared to other similar abilities, especially when it already ignores every single defensive rule (has Eyeless Sight and ignores Concealment, Elevation and Cover) Lord of the Feast also seems to have rules just for the hell of it, with an inexplicable RAT 7. I suppose if he wouldn't be free, it would be more of a choice to include him? TL;DR: individual models aren't necessarily too strong, but do have a lot of rules which lend themselves well to extreme synergy. From the other side of the table this can feel very overwhelming. And LotF is just bullshit
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Post by paradox on Feb 25, 2019 13:06:36 GMT
Ravagers were okay but with relatively low pow attacks were shadows of themselves from their MKII versions. Loss of AD and brutal charge for only gaining the mini feat and tough was harsh in the transition and the community poo pooed them accordingly. All they realistically needed was brutal charge to allow them some variety in the targets they could hunt. They got that + rapid healing + no knockdown + a starting corpse + DI on a model if they want it. That minifeat now becomes something back breaking and they're functionally immune to small arms fire. Ravagers already had no KD though. And the mini-feat is unchanged, so it’s exactly as backbreak as before. Which is not really at all because its just MAT7 PS13. If youre playing dudespam, its gonna suck. But youre already having a bad day if you dropped dudespam into Tharn you were already going to have it bad. If ravagers need to cut back anything, Id make it rapid healing. However, at 13/15 Im not convinced this is actually a problem. Lose it and they again suffervinto any shooting at all. The theme hearts are also nice, but so far in CID and post I simply have not seen them break anything, really. Plus I fully expect croc pot to get errataed to friendly faction only. That solves many issues alone.
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Post by streetpizza on Feb 25, 2019 13:58:16 GMT
Ravagers were okay but with relatively low pow attacks were shadows of themselves from their MKII versions. Loss of AD and brutal charge for only gaining the mini feat and tough was harsh in the transition and the community poo pooed them accordingly. All they realistically needed was brutal charge to allow them some variety in the targets they could hunt. They got that + rapid healing + no knockdown + a starting corpse + DI on a model if they want it. That minifeat now becomes something back breaking and they're functionally immune to small arms fire. Ravagers already had no KD though. And the mini-feat is unchanged, so it’s exactly as backbreak as before. Which is not really at all because its just MAT7 PS13. If youre playing dudespam, its gonna suck. But youre already having a bad day if you dropped dudespam into Tharn you were already going to have it bad. If ravagers need to cut back anything, Id make it rapid healing. However, at 13/15 Im not convinced this is actually a problem. Lose it and they again suffervinto any shooting at all. The theme hearts are also nice, but so far in CID and post I simply have not seen them break anything, really. Plus I fully expect croc pot to get errataed to friendly faction only. That solves many issues alone. The mini-feat is not exactly as before. Now you have a starting corpse to hedge your bet if you miss that first attack, the defending model toughs or to boost if you're going into high def infantry. Also divine inspiration turns one model in the unit into an absolute murder machine. No knock down tough did exist at the start of MKIII but it wasn't coupled with rapid healing. If you haven't seen the hearts on ravagers break anything then you simply haven't played them enough. The starting heart is what enables things like 4 ravagers killing a colossal. 4x P+S 17 or 18 charges are really good but 4 additional P+S 15 or 16 attacks following that up just lay on the extra damage. Yes dropping infantry into tharn has always been a bad idea in MKIII but now its infantry, jacks, battle engines and anything else. They need to have a weakness and given that they're a melee infantry spam list shooting should be it. Where the game sits now I don't know that any of that is really egregious but you can't say it isn't miles better than what it was with any sincerity.
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Post by paradox on Feb 25, 2019 14:07:39 GMT
Ravagers already had no KD though. And the mini-feat is unchanged, so it’s exactly as backbreak as before. Which is not really at all because its just MAT7 PS13. If youre playing dudespam, its gonna suck. But youre already having a bad day if you dropped dudespam into Tharn you were already going to have it bad. If ravagers need to cut back anything, Id make it rapid healing. However, at 13/15 Im not convinced this is actually a problem. Lose it and they again suffervinto any shooting at all. The theme hearts are also nice, but so far in CID and post I simply have not seen them break anything, really. Plus I fully expect croc pot to get errataed to friendly faction only. That solves many issues alone. The mini-feat is not exactly as before. Now you have a starting corpse to hedge your bet if you miss that first attack, the defending model toughs or to boost if you're going into high def infantry. Also divine inspiration turns one model in the unit into an absolute murder machine. No knock down tough did exist at the start of MKIII but it wasn't coupled with rapid healing. If you haven't seen the hearts on ravagers break anything then you simply haven't played them enough. The starting heart is what enables things like 4 ravagers killing a colossal. 4x P+S 17 or 18 charges are really good but 4 additional P+S 15 or 16 attacks following that up just lay on the extra damage. Yes dropping infantry into tharn has always been a bad idea in MKIII but now its infantry, jacks, battle engines and anything else. They need to have a weakness and given that they're a melee infantry spam list shooting should be it. Where the game sits now I don't know that any of that is really egregious but you can't say it isn't miles better than what it was with any sincerity. DI costs a model, and requires the solo in position. Ravagers have a static threat of 11 unless you give away Vengeance, and thats poor play on you. Rapid Healing on ARM15 is really more dependant on Tough rolls. So going back to my original comment, it REALLY depends on how many Toughs you make to how good Tharn feel. If youre letting me charge 4 Tharn with a buff/debuff into your colossal, then Ive lost on my own bad play anyway. Its not like I cant do this in EI with exemplars swinging PS15 WM DI and Cleave/Overtake either. Who can also be Tough no KD. What ravagers do is not at all novel to this game. Its just novel in MKIII Circle. Ravagers are fine. Maybe cut Rapid Healing, but then I think we see any shooting at all screwing them again.
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Post by streetpizza on Feb 25, 2019 14:32:29 GMT
The mini-feat is not exactly as before. Now you have a starting corpse to hedge your bet if you miss that first attack, the defending model toughs or to boost if you're going into high def infantry. Also divine inspiration turns one model in the unit into an absolute murder machine. No knock down tough did exist at the start of MKIII but it wasn't coupled with rapid healing. If you haven't seen the hearts on ravagers break anything then you simply haven't played them enough. The starting heart is what enables things like 4 ravagers killing a colossal. 4x P+S 17 or 18 charges are really good but 4 additional P+S 15 or 16 attacks following that up just lay on the extra damage. Yes dropping infantry into tharn has always been a bad idea in MKIII but now its infantry, jacks, battle engines and anything else. They need to have a weakness and given that they're a melee infantry spam list shooting should be it. Where the game sits now I don't know that any of that is really egregious but you can't say it isn't miles better than what it was with any sincerity. DI costs a model, and requires the solo in position. Ravagers have a static threat of 11 unless you give away Vengeance, and thats poor play on you. Rapid Healing on ARM15 is really more dependant on Tough rolls. So going back to my original comment, it REALLY depends on how many Toughs you make to how good Tharn feel. If youre letting me charge 4 Tharn with a buff/debuff into your colossal, then Ive lost on my own bad play anyway. Its not like I cant do this in EI with exemplars swinging PS15 WM DI and Cleave/Overtake either. Who can also be Tough no KD. What ravagers do is not at all novel to this game. Its just novel in MKIII Circle. Ravagers are fine. Maybe cut Rapid Healing, but then I think we see any shooting at all screwing them again. Common dox you're better than this Yes DI costs a model but who cares when it nets you most of a unit or a heavy in return. If only things like mirrage and hunters mark didn't exist you'd be right. Oh look the most popular caster they're played with brings one of those. Sure means a lot to pow 10 shooting doesn't it? Also not like we can't bring an infantry arm buff to the party. Se the previous guys post about Baldur1. Simplistic game state assertions are simplistic. Cleave and overtake on 1" reach unit =/= hearts and overtake on a 2" reach unit. One caps out at two attacks the other as infinite attack possibility with much larger spacing requirements to stop it. Exemplars cannot use forests or other terrain for delivery like tharn can. Exemplar are single wound models that much more vulnerable to shooting. You telling me that if you had ravagers available in EI that you would still be using Knights? I highly doubt that. I agree that they're probably fine in context of what else is out there. I have to make that point with meta all the time. Doesn't mean we can't acknowledge that they're edging up to the highest ends of the power curve.
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Post by paradox on Feb 25, 2019 14:38:13 GMT
DI costs a model, and requires the solo in position. Ravagers have a static threat of 11 unless you give away Vengeance, and thats poor play on you. Rapid Healing on ARM15 is really more dependant on Tough rolls. So going back to my original comment, it REALLY depends on how many Toughs you make to how good Tharn feel. If youre letting me charge 4 Tharn with a buff/debuff into your colossal, then Ive lost on my own bad play anyway. Its not like I cant do this in EI with exemplars swinging PS15 WM DI and Cleave/Overtake either. Who can also be Tough no KD. What ravagers do is not at all novel to this game. Its just novel in MKIII Circle. Ravagers are fine. Maybe cut Rapid Healing, but then I think we see any shooting at all screwing them again. Common dox you're better than this Yes DI costs a model but who cares when it nets you most of a unit or a heavy in return. If only things like mirrage and hunters mark didn't exist you'd be right. Oh look the most popular caster they're played with brings one of those. Sure means a lot to pow 10 shooting doesn't it? Also not like we can't bring an infantry arm buff to the party. Se the previous guys post about Baldur1. Simplistic game state assertions are simplistic. Cleave and overtake on 1" reach unit =/= hearts and overtake on a 2" reach unit. One caps out at two attacks the other as infinite attack possibility with much larger spacing requirements to stop it. Exemplars cannot use forests or other terrain for delivery like tharn can. Exemplar are single wound models that much more vulnerable to shooting. You telling me that if you had ravagers available in EI that you would still be using Knights? I highly doubt that. I agree that they're probably fine in context of what else is out there. I have to make that point with meta all the time. Doesn't mean we can't acknowledge that they're edging up to the highest ends of the power curve. And youre better than this. 9pt KE with a 4pt CA have built in DI and PS11/13 WM baseline. You get Sev0 and any buff at all and they easily exceed Ravagers. For significantly less pts. I WOULD take KE over ravagers, yes, cause its 7pts cheaper and doesnt have the shitty Granted Vengeance. And their no LD bubble is better and takes no *action. And they have magic weapons without a solo.
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Post by jisidro on Feb 25, 2019 15:26:03 GMT
I don't see the Tharnaggeddon ppl keep talking about... But hey, perhaps it's just my skill lvl.
The thing I believe was not thought out beyond the "I don't want all corpses on the Death Wolves" is the starting corpses. The fact that Tharns can boost hit into some targets or buy attacks or walk in and boost damage after hitting for faux charge is the only thing I think is too much.
Let me just add that the double internal boosting known as the Pagani special is something I don't like in B&C. Gang AND prey? It's too explosive with minimal external buffing.
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Post by paradox on Feb 25, 2019 16:36:17 GMT
I don't see the Tharnaggeddon ppl keep talking about... But hey, perhaps it's just my skill lvl. The thing I believe was not thought out beyond the "I don't want all corpses on the Death Wolves" is the starting corpses. The fact that Tharns can boost hit into some targets or buy attacks or walk in and boost damage after hitting for faux charge is the only thing I think is too much. Let me just add that the double internal boosting known as the Pagani special is something I don't like in B&C. Gang AND prey? It's too explosive with minimal external buffing. I could see cutting Gang from B&C. I dont know that its very thematic anyway, and they dont NEED it. Brighid can still Assault and Prey and be a gun, Caul is still a tank. It just helps cut back at the more abusive edges of the unit, and should help encourage the option to split them up a bit. I could also see LotF lose Death Powered and Blood Reaper to getting a bird/thresher combo that works. Then maybe a slight bump to POW14 or something. Again keeping him thematic while trimming back the abusive edges.
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Post by paradox on Feb 25, 2019 17:56:22 GMT
RE: ravagers. I guess we have to ask if a unit + CA + solo, + caster attachment + theme benefit+ feat + sacrified model + maybe a minion unit buff should be able to have serious melee output complained of here. Thats ALOT to put into a unit’s performance. It should have output.
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