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Post by rezfon on Apr 2, 2019 13:46:44 GMT
I think a combination of blood ritual being target tharn, lotf directly facing bird target after place and reducing the range to something like 6/7" should massively reduce his board pressure and actually allow list building tech to counter him. He bypasses too much list building tech, reducing his strength directly so he can't kill models isn't the way to go.
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Post by paradox on Apr 2, 2019 15:14:41 GMT
Why poor? It would reduce the impact of the 10" place immensely which is the biggest complaint about the LotF... A friend suggests the LotF should be placed in the arc it shoots to, so forward arc if it shoots from the forward arc. I'm not sure how that would interact with a shield guard but it give more freedom than the direct facing while allowing for a way to stop the LotF to gain range by placing itself in the back of whatever it shoots. It's always a positioning game with him. Shield walls become squares when he is around. Poor because people make mini-games of positiong already, which detract from gameplay and enjoyment, and this would compund the issue. Further, the added complexity doesnt really fix the core issues, just tries to cover them. Which is especially damning when there are much simpler changes that just fix it, period.
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Post by rezfon on Apr 2, 2019 17:28:34 GMT
If you want to promote killing infantry, rather than have a boring static str change, wouldn't an ability that promotes going for lots of models be better such as blood quenched that fenris has?
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Post by Gamingdevil on Apr 3, 2019 6:24:33 GMT
If you want to promote killing infantry, rather than have a boring static str change, wouldn't an ability that promotes going for lots of models be better such as blood quenched that fenris has? Wouldn't that allow him to charge, kill a bunch of models with Blood Reaper and then bird off somewhere else to still kill casters, potentially with more +STR than Death Powered would give him? And his STR would no longer go down with buying attacks. The only way I see this being better is that the Spirit Cauldron doesn't turn him into an ARM 19 tank turn 1, but in most other cases, it seems even more powerful.
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Post by Trollock on Apr 3, 2019 7:53:37 GMT
If you want to promote killing infantry, rather than have a boring static str change, wouldn't an ability that promotes going for lots of models be better such as blood quenched that fenris has? Wouldn't that allow him to charge, kill a bunch of models with Blood Reaper and then bird off somewhere else to still kill casters, potentially with more +STR than Death Powered would give him? And his STR would no longer go down with buying attacks. The only way I see this being better is that the Spirit Cauldron doesn't turn him into an ARM 19 tank turn 1, but in most other cases, it seems even more powerful. Blood Quenched seems SOOO much more broken...
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Post by jisidro on Apr 3, 2019 8:09:13 GMT
Why poor? It would reduce the impact of the 10" place immensely which is the biggest complaint about the LotF... A friend suggests the LotF should be placed in the arc it shoots to, so forward arc if it shoots from the forward arc. I'm not sure how that would interact with a shield guard but it give more freedom than the direct facing while allowing for a way to stop the LotF to gain range by placing itself in the back of whatever it shoots. It's always a positioning game with him. Shield walls become squares when he is around. Poor because people make mini-games of positiong already, which detract from gameplay and enjoyment, and this would compund the issue. Further, the added complexity doesnt really fix the core issues, just tries to cover them. Which is especially damning when there are much simpler changes that just fix it, period. There will always be mini games... positioning to avoid blasts, trying to reduce the effectiveness of sprays, placing shield guards, blocking LOS, etc... This would just be another.
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Post by rezfon on Apr 3, 2019 8:30:00 GMT
If you want to promote killing infantry, rather than have a boring static str change, wouldn't an ability that promotes going for lots of models be better such as blood quenched that fenris has? Wouldn't that allow him to charge, kill a bunch of models with Blood Reaper and then bird off somewhere else to still kill casters, potentially with more +STR than Death Powered would give him? And his STR would no longer go down with buying attacks. The only way I see this being better is that the Spirit Cauldron doesn't turn him into an ARM 19 tank turn 1, but in most other cases, it seems even more powerful. it would also need removal/change of blood thresher, as the moment you start buying attacks you won't be able to bird correct?
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Post by Gamingdevil on Apr 3, 2019 8:35:51 GMT
Wouldn't that allow him to charge, kill a bunch of models with Blood Reaper and then bird off somewhere else to still kill casters, potentially with more +STR than Death Powered would give him? And his STR would no longer go down with buying attacks. The only way I see this being better is that the Spirit Cauldron doesn't turn him into an ARM 19 tank turn 1, but in most other cases, it seems even more powerful. it would also need removal/change of blood thresher, as the moment you start buying attacks you won't be able to bird correct? Correct. I still feel like straight up removal of Death Powered with a mild compensation in ARM, and maybe DEF and STR, would be the best course of action. He can still "free thresher" infantry at MAT 8, P+S 13 (maybe 14), Grievous Wounds, with the option to buy more attacks. I'm not sure what more incentive you want? It makes it harder for him to mess up harder targets while also making him slightly easier to kill at range due to lower ARM. He should still have plenty of relevant rules and targets for a 6 point solo.
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Post by redcathal on Apr 3, 2019 8:57:29 GMT
I think he's fine. He's just got a new angle on assassination that people have yet to get used to because it's a lot easier to complain than to adapt. I realise I'm in the minority and I know he is really good but so are say hellmouths? Which if one gets to your caster will cause almost certain death whereas often LotF will bounce off a warlock/caster camping enough. Just my thoughts.
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Post by Gamingdevil on Apr 3, 2019 9:07:11 GMT
I think he's fine. He's just got a new angle on assassination that people have yet to get used to because it's a lot easier to complain than to adapt. I realise I'm in the minority and I know he is really good but so are say hellmouths? Which if one gets to your caster will cause almost certain death whereas often LotF will bounce off a warlock/caster camping enough. Just my thoughts. I don't think that's the same though. Hellmouths suffer from jamming and don't do a lot of fancy stuff against infantry lists. They also need something else to be able to finish the job after dragging something in. They're also MAT 6, so they can actually fail at what they're trying to do. In matchups where they lose their utility, they are nothing but a, albeit quite effective, jamming unit. Lord of the Feast, with some minor support, has no bad targets. Even if you "learn to play" against him, there are only so many models you can properly protect and he will always have at least something to mess up. If you keep him as a late game piece, it's even harder to protect against him. Keeping him back for a while is also not terribly difficult with a minimum, non-linear, threat range of 16".
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Post by redcathal on Apr 3, 2019 10:05:26 GMT
I think he's fine. He's just got a new angle on assassination that people have yet to get used to because it's a lot easier to complain than to adapt. I realise I'm in the minority and I know he is really good but so are say hellmouths? Which if one gets to your caster will cause almost certain death whereas often LotF will bounce off a warlock/caster camping enough. Just my thoughts. I don't think that's the same though. Hellmouths suffer from jamming and don't do a lot of fancy stuff against infantry lists. They also need something else to be able to finish the job after dragging something in. They're also MAT 6, so they can actually fail at what they're trying to do. In matchups where they lose their utility, they are nothing but a, albeit quite effective, jamming unit. Lord of the Feast, with some minor support, has no bad targets. Even if you "learn to play" against him, there are only so many models you can properly protect and he will always have at least something to mess up. If you keep him as a late game piece, it's even harder to protect against him. Keeping him back for a while is also not terribly difficult with a minimum, non-linear, threat range of 16". Lord of the Feast, with some minor support, has no bad targets.Yes but for 11 (pot) or 15 (pot+blood shaman) points he should be able to do work and aside from Grayle's and maybe Baldur1's LotF they do have bad targets any Jack with a decent damage grid, beasts with long damage spirals etc. of course you can get luck and cripple a system or aspect but that's probably fine for your opponent. Even if you "learn to play" against him, there are only so many models you can properly protect and he will always have at least something to mess up.The same could be said for a multitude of models. It is a game of piece trade and managing what you give the opponent is what it is about, the Circle play style is about trying to cheat it via sprint/teleportation/shenanigans etc which is why the models are so fragile. This is just another aspect of that style. If you keep him as a late game piece...The value of all work models gets better the longer they stick around Again I'm not saying he's not good, he's great but you need models that are above the curve for there to be one and all this talk of nerfing him to me seems unnecessary
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Post by paradox on Apr 3, 2019 10:54:13 GMT
Poor because people make mini-games of positiong already, which detract from gameplay and enjoyment, and this would compund the issue. Further, the added complexity doesnt really fix the core issues, just tries to cover them. Which is especially damning when there are much simpler changes that just fix it, period. There will always be mini games... positioning to avoid blasts, trying to reduce the effectiveness of sprays, placing shield guards, blocking LOS, etc... This would just be another. Thats no reason to add more. In fact, its reason enough on its own not to do it. It is why its a poor change and no real fix at all.
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d3z
Junior Strategist
Posts: 129
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Post by d3z on Apr 3, 2019 13:12:26 GMT
Again I'm not saying he's not good, he's great but you need models that are above the curve for there to be one and all this talk of nerfing him to me seems unnecessary I think the issue is that there's such a low level of available counterplay to it compared to other problem models. Even with the hellmouth, I can come up with a substantially longer list of answers to the following questions than LotF:
- Can I pit it against something it can't easily damage/kill? - Is the best defense a good offense (can I kill it first)? - Can I jam it? - Can I avoid/work around it?
- Can I counter it with special rules?
I'd also contend that it's not quite right to simply add the points of support on to the LotF when expressing it's expected output by points cost. Those pieces aren't expended like LotF is (more or less) when it goes in, and will do more work over a game.
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Post by brotem on Apr 3, 2019 22:08:55 GMT
Based on todays dev hangout there won't be any imminent LotF or Iona nerfs. So terror will reign at least a few more months.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Apr 4, 2019 0:25:49 GMT
Again I'm not saying he's not good, he's great but you need models that are above the curve for there to be one and all this talk of nerfing him to me seems unnecessary I think the issue is that there's such a low level of available counterplay to it compared to other problem models. Even with the hellmouth, I can come up with a substantially longer list of answers to the following questions than LotF:
- Can I pit it against something it can't easily damage/kill?
high armor beasts/multiwound infantry are not something that the LoTF excels at damage, particularly if it's not being buffed by Baldur1 or Grayle. If we're considering Caster buffs, a Hellmouth under Anamag kills has no bad targets.
- Is the best defense a good offense (can I kill it first)?
Kill a 10 box impervious flesh model, probably with a BB armor buff, vs. kill an 8 box arm 19 model. One of these things is harder to kill than the other.
- Can I jam it? - Can I avoid/work around it?
You cannot meaningfully avoid a hellmouth parked on a scenario element. You CAN work around a LOTF by spacing models to avoid giving ideal threshers, it just takes a lot of time/effort.
- Can I counter it with special rules?
You can counter the LoTF with stealth, with shield guards, with - range spells, with rules that limit it's activation (stranglehold, blind, stationary etc).
I'd also contend that it's not quite right to simply add the points of support on to the LotF when expressing it's expected output by points cost. Those pieces aren't expended like LotF is (more or less) when it goes in, and will do more work over a game.
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