regleant
Junior Strategist
Sometimes things go right
Posts: 267
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Post by regleant on Apr 17, 2017 4:05:25 GMT
(Actual question at the bottom, story for context immediately below) I finally faced Harkevich for the first time this weekend. It was 8 jacks (Behemoth, Juggernaut x2, Marauder x4, Clamjack) and minor support. I ran my Zaal1 list with Swordsmen + UA, full suite of Exalted, and the Mammoth. Normally, I've not had any problem against lists up to 4-5 jacks / beasts. I can trade up with Swordsmen (minifeat + Last Stand = 5 dice of damage!), and the Mammoth is amazing back-up (honestly the best beast load-out I've tried through 5 different versions). Due to various play mistakes I was tabled and killed nothing. Notwithstanding my own errors... In going through the match turn by turn, Zaal1 definitely fails in the Harkevich match, especially due to the +3 ARM on the feat. Swordsmen cost more than the jacks so I'm no longer trading up! And the Ancestrals / Hakaar simply don't hit hard enough to break down so many boxes, even with Last Stand and the Feat. So... What are people using to break Harkevich with 7-8 jacks? How to 'ignore' the +3 ARM on Feat turn? At best, I am looking at Naraash / Rasheth with Agonizers, along with Tiberion, Sentry, Gladiator, Bronzeback. That puts Skorne armor into high levels every round, and we all know Skorne beasts wreck face. Even with more jacks, the Harkevich player simply can't break a Sentry on feat turn (effective ARM 25 with Rasheth or 26 with Naraash), whereas Sentry can still do a lot of damage even into Harkevich' feat. Open to suggestion. Unfortunately due to business travel, I won't see it on the table for 3 weeks. And lastly, what else would the proposed list be strong into, so that I can find a decent pairing? As is, Makeda1 is my pairing as she has been back-breaking for most well-balanced lists to deal with (Retribution, Cygnar, Legion, Protectorate, Mercs, other Skorne).
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Post by fragpalm on Apr 17, 2017 4:44:27 GMT
I faced it at a tourney and put down a Xerxis2 list that featured the Hydra. Yeah, that's when a Maurauder made it to my garg under Signs and Portents. Not pleasant. Regardless, my heavy trade could never gain an advantage because he always had more heavies than I did, nevermind the loads of Winterguard.
I did not have a Sentry along for the ride, and I think that makes the difference when it comes to trumping Khador. High enough armour can bounce Juggernauts and Kodiaks. We're talking the armour 21-24 range. In fact, it was the Khador player that brought this to my attention, which I then ran through Buy or Boost to confirm. He's right. The bell curve stands right around there. This is not to say the rockets won't polish off a Sentry or Tiberion, but knowing this threshold is a start.
Which brings me to the Makedas. Mitigating rather than killing the Khador heavies might be just the trick we need in the Harkevich match up. Skorne is so used to pulverizing multiple heavies a turn that resorting to other measures in a heavy on heavy confrontation may seem weird, but her capacity to jam is hard to counter, and might just allow us to trade more effectively.
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Post by asm0dai on Apr 18, 2017 13:14:43 GMT
Lost the other day to this list:
Khador Army - 75 / 75 points
(Harkevich 1) Kommander Harkevich, The Iron Wolf [+28] - Destroyer [14] - Destroyer [14] - Destroyer [14] - Kodiak [13] - Kodiak [13] - Kodiak [13] - Ruin [17] Orin Midwinter, Rogue Inquisitor [5]
I was trying to do my best with this list:
Skorne Army - 74 / 75 points
(Naaresh 1) Master Ascetic Naaresh [+32] - Agonizer [6] - Bronzeback Titan [18] - Tiberion [22] - Titan Gladiator [15] - Titan Sentry [15] - Titan Sentry [15] Orin Midwinter, Rogue Inquisitor [5] Paingiver Beast Handlers (min) [5] Paingiver Beast Handlers (min) [5]
I lost from the moment when Agonizer was shoot twice (first mortar shell was captured by Tiberion) and was killed by the second shell. The ability to put three clouds AND step away behind them - it's something VERY annoying. I was forced to risk BB and one of my Sentries to at least start close combat somehow and also I was forced to play Naaresh's feat defensively to a very good results (at least, beasts who took charges from kadoran heavies on their own feat-turn - stayed alive with 5-6 points left).
It was possible to keep pummeling them somehow - but my opponent has it's Destroyer on the flag and counted 3 CPs at the start of the turn on which I concedes.
What I'm going to say - from my point of view, my opinion is that, regardless on positive changes made by the last errata - it's still very difficult to win with Skorne... The game looks like "It is a war between Khador, Cygnar, Retribution and Circle's Tree".
Let's forget for a moment that it is probably my own faults and I still can't "into the skorne" etc., etc....
Let's just compare numbers and requirements.
Looking at the Harkevitch's roster we can see that Khador, usually, don't need support. Any kind of it. Just load 'em with focus tokens and slam 'em down the opponent's throat!
What we usually do with skorne? What's jumping at you first? Riiiight, PGBH! You'll take them with you or you won't leave home at all. Aaaaand you already lost 5 points at least.
Next, we should compare our "workhorses"-beasts with kadoran jacks. Suppose we will fight with gladiators/sentry. We take at least two of them - it's 30 points (Glad + Sentry, for example)... Guys, it's THREE "Marauders"! THREE jacks with MAT=7, ARM=20 and the possible melee damage outcome at (2-3d6) (+1 in case of Gladiator and -1 in case of Sentry) level (I'm speaking about the "Combo smite") - against two beasts with MAT=6, arm 19/21... Kick them "Marauders" first (no) - you'll still have one of them, angry and ready. And it's another 34 points of structure. Points pricing makes me feel sick....
To add more here - let's think that as a skorne players we're affraid of shooting OR of heavy melee damage. So we will add Agonizer to our roster in case of melee danger - it's another 6 points of support which can only "do aura thing", provide some fury to our warlock and, well, die occasionally. In case of incoming shooting - we will add Basilisk Krea thanks to "reincarnated" animus. This is another 7 points of support which can do nothing practical in offence department (with MAT=RAT=4 - pleeeeeease!).
Are you still with me? *poke-poke*
Sooo we, now, have 11-12 points of support which can provide us some buffs against melee/shooting, provide us free charges, some fury manipulation and strength buff. Sounds good, yep? But we are STILL limited in the amount of our offensive forces. 6-7 kadoran jacks can be SPREAD in such a way that all your titans (which RADIATES raw force from them being buffed to ears) can one-round 1 or 2 of them.. ok, even 3 if your opponent is very helpful - but next round they will die, leaving you with 1 or 2 of your fighting heavy - facing 4-5 kadoran "brand new" jacks. What will you do?
If you ask me - I'll tell you this "blasphemy"... I will put Skorne back to shelves and, at best, will turn to Khador :-( At worst - I will take a look at Dark Age, Deadzone and Maliphaux, waiting in hope that "Privateer Press" will invent the "FA:2" limitation to all non-character warjacks and beasts - but, no, this won't happen because "spams was always the part of the game" (c)..., yyeeeeeeeah...
Sorry for the long post and a lot of "salt" :-(
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Post by fragpalm on Apr 18, 2017 15:03:27 GMT
Asm0dai, I'm the farthest thing from a salty player, but I agree that there's some kind of discrepancy in Khador point costs, despite the nerfs. There are a few "rich" factions out there that leave me puzzled. Granted, I've only ever seriously played Skorne, Legion and Cygnar, not precisely factions with low point costs. (This is exacerbated by how Skorne has to wait for a more useful theme.)
That said, I think you can economize on support costs in Skorne if you make a pairing that handles guns in one list and melee in another, at least to a slight degree. Reserve the Krea for tackling Cygnar, Legion and maybe Khador and Menoth and Ret, while the Agonizer is in your other list, hopefully with a few shield guards just in case. Having both in one list does get heavy, and should probably be avoided.
Also to avoid except in the most extreme cases is more than a max unit of Handlers. For a long time I ran two units in my beast heavy lists, and though it was fruitful in terms of having easy angles for healing and Enraging, it was simply a point sink in most cases. Lately I've pared it down to one minimum unit, even for huge beast lists like those Xerxis2 wants. The trick here, I find, is always measuring 6" to the nearest beast that will need a Prod and Enrange next turn, which makes them a bit harder for the opponent to drift onto, or even electro-leap. And let's be honest here, once you've launched your heavies, they will virtually never be able to use the Handlers again, so having these useless guys wandering around after an alpha is pointless aside from contesting or jamming. Exceptions are healing spams (Hexy2 with lots of Handlers on a Hydra is sweet) or lists that are designed to take a punch first (Rasheth, Naaresh, maybe even Xerxis1). It takes a little practice, but once you get the hang of it 4 Handlers will be plenty in most lists.
When it comes to Khador I really think we can't brute-force them, despite being a faction that specializes in exactly that. There has to be a faction that is above the rest in terms of spammable heavies, and that's Khador, not Skorne. How other factions take this on is beyond me, as it's a huge, frustrating challenge, but when it comes to Skorne we might need to think outside the box a little more. I've mentioned the Makedas before, and it still seems the ideal counter; not much a heavy can do when he can't kill a large base (Ferox) in his face. At most, he can throw it, but cats do land on their feet (tough from the mortitheurge, steady, stay death). Mordikaar with Archidons and Host of Shadows is an interesting assassination trick that might work, though admittedly Harkevich and Butcher are hugely survivable. Vlad is popular, on the other hand. The Zaals offer a different approach as well (Zaal1 attritions well against multiple heavies, Zaal2 roadblocks and spams dudes which is excellent on scenario). With a little creativity and the willingness to try something other than SMASH we might be able to get the job done.
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didder
Junior Strategist
Posts: 166
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Post by didder on Apr 18, 2017 15:34:32 GMT
Asmodai, I sympathize. Maybe Skorne is still in a pretty poor spot, but I'd like to discuss.
First, we as Skorne have to come to grips with the fact even if it's not as cut and dry as beasts < jacks, Khador does jacks better than Skorne will ever do beasts. Like you said, our beasts cost 40% more, require at least 12 points of support, and that support has very severe limits on what it can realistically do.
Second, I feel that if your list included an Extoller Soulward to get a charge off through the clouds, put another shield guard next to the Agonizer (and blurred him), then it would have been a much better game for you. Maybe switching the bronzeback for a soldier would be nice anti cloudwall tech since he could drag other Kodiaks in and let your other charges go off.
Third, 2 units of Swordsmen under several different casters would be a better place to start against Khador jack bricks, although that cloudwall is still a thing.
Lastly, Brutes are probably the best thing we have for setting up a favorable piece trade. They might have been up the board quick enough to contest, too, since a big shortcoming of a pure titan brick is the inability to contest really at all.
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Post by elladan52 on Apr 18, 2017 15:56:39 GMT
Two things:
First, reducing FA is not a solution and if you think it is you need to put a little more effort in. Any given FA will still cause problems because of the cheapness of Khador jacks, so for the love of all that is holy quit whining about FA.
Second, the agonizer is extremely important when going against Harkevich. Most of his heavies will top out at pow 16, and reducing that to 14 makes it hard for him to kill your heavies back since he doesn't allocate much. Very careful positioning and judicious use of the scenario is required to keep him from overloading you with attacks from his jacks. It helps a lot if you have someone like Makeda that can protect your beasts with infantry for a turn and heavily outhreats his jacks.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Apr 19, 2017 2:23:13 GMT
As a Khador guy PPs philosophy is usually pretty simple:
The More reliable something is, the lower the bonus it gives. That's the basic Dichotomy between even Say Shield Wall and Iron Wall or Armor 16. Khador doesn't need support, but it never reaches the highs that Factions with support ever reach. Its taken 10 years for a warcaster to be able to put an arm Buff on a Khadoran Warjack not as a feat.
Keep your beasts in reserve, Engage the heavies with Cheap infantry (Doing some damage). Either Harkevitch feats then, and as a result is feebler against the Beasts, or feats later but not before taking some ding damage.
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zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
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Post by zich on Apr 19, 2017 12:16:32 GMT
Smashing beasts into his Jacks probably won't work. Khador just plays the Heavy game better than we do. So we'll have to play something else into them. Has anyone had the chance to try Makeda1 (Swordsmen, Ferox some beasts) into Harkevich (~8 Heavies) and Vlad1 (3-4 Heavies, Rifle Corps, some more stuff)? Mine is still unpained.
Or has anyone tried the Crazy Cat Lady (Mak2 + 2x Ferox + Support) into Harkevich? She doesn't have the armor cracking to really smash those jacks, but they will also not accomplish much, while getting slowly dismantled by cats. Bonus points because the list doesn't care about clouds or Mobility.
Or we can go the ARM spam route with something like Zaadesh2+Sentry/Tiberion+Agonizer. But while Harkevich might have some issues with that, the rest of Khador certainly doesn't.
On the jack spam front I am more worried about Amon. We have a few answers into him, most of them involving Infantry. However, these are pretty hard to play into Sevy2, leaving us with a chicken situation.
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Post by asm0dai on Apr 20, 2017 7:55:35 GMT
Thank you everyone for answering to my salty post. I've collected some useful ideas from you guys, thanks. Running "Crazy Cat Lady" list is something from the "Expensive purchases" department. I have one unit of them but didn't tried them yet. BTW, could someone point me to some interesting article (even noobs-oriented) about "Skorne in a nutshell" or even about "Skorne for dummies"? I hope even OP will be glad to read something like this
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granor
Junior Strategist
Posts: 353
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Post by granor on Apr 20, 2017 14:58:03 GMT
Running "Crazy Cat Lady" list is something from the "Expensive purchases" department. I have one unit of them but didn't tried them yet. WARNING UNTESTED DOJO AHEAD: Do you have wrong eye? I was wondering if taking out one unit of cats would be worth adding in wrongeye with a paingiver task master for scutter on him. Keep up with the cats keep them under starcrossed
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Post by asm0dai on Apr 21, 2017 13:05:02 GMT
Running "Crazy Cat Lady" list is something from the "Expensive purchases" department. I have one unit of them but didn't tried them yet. WARNING UNTESTED DOJO AHEAD: Do you have wrong eye? I was wondering if taking out one unit of cats would be worth adding in wrongeye with a paingiver task master for scutter on him. Keep up with the cats keep them under starcrossed Hello! I have it but it is in painting at the moment. I heard about how good he is - I will test it sometime..
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demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649
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Post by demonic on Apr 22, 2017 21:56:20 GMT
If you just want to know how to play Skorne, asm0dai, just make a topic and ask. Skorne has a lot of different play styles so asking for a singular tactic won't work. Each time you'll receive the reply "which type?" This topic is someone asking how Skorne can crack top of the line armor without making too much of a sacrifice. Unfortunately, since support pieces are such a vital part of skorne play, we always have to be point conscious about our choices.
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Post by fragpalm on Apr 24, 2017 20:30:50 GMT
Went against Harkevich again at a tourney over the weekend. This time I didn't try to fight fire with fire and instead tried to pick out the heavies that could kill Tiberion while jamming with Ferox under Xerxis1. It worked decently, but in the end innumerable vent steams and slams busted up the Defender's Warded Ferox. It did take up to 5 heavies to remove a Defender's Warded Tiberion, which is interesting statistically if anything (my opponent rolled okay for that, but arm 23 is just good against most things).
It just didn't seem to matter how much I jammed or picked out key heavies, there were always more heavies right behind them, powered up to full focus thanks to two Greylords. So much for the idea that Harkevich can't fuel enough heavies to make them worthwhile.
I went 2-2, losing only to Khador. I'm not the best player in my meta, of course, but I'm decent, and Khador is a huge uphill battle. We even had one of our best players throw his hands up in defeat and switch factions in response to Khador. At this point I'm waiting for the new scenarios, Zaadesh and maybe a decent theme to counter them. And practicing more!
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Post by insyderznf on Apr 24, 2017 23:21:43 GMT
Khador has really seemed to be the faction in mk3 that thier casters fix all their weaknesses. Harkevitch is a perfect example. Slow jacks? Cool heres +2 move and pathfinder. Your jacks get knocked down? No problem lets do jumpstart. Your shooting is inaccurate? Cool lets fix that by you shooting more with broadside. Running low on focus and arm 20 not enough? We got you covered with the feat.
All that being said 3.2 charging swordmen under feat can kill a jack a turn. So for the cost of your unit and if the dice are nice to you you could hopefully remove 3 jacks just with a full unit if swordsmen during his feat turn. If not feat turn your taking out 4. I wish we had a way to up thier speed though that would help tremendously.
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Post by fragpalm on Apr 25, 2017 1:59:56 GMT
Khador has really seemed to be the faction in mk3 that thier casters fix all their weaknesses. Harkevitch is a perfect example. Slow jacks? Cool heres +2 move and pathfinder. Your jacks get knocked down? No problem lets do jumpstart. Your shooting is inaccurate? Cool lets fix that by you shooting more with broadside. Running low on focus and arm 20 not enough? We got you covered with the feat. All that being said 3.2 charging swordmen under feat can kill a jack a turn. So for the cost of your unit and if the dice are nice to you you could hopefully remove 3 jacks just with a full unit if swordsmen during his feat turn. If not feat turn your taking out 4. I wish we had a way to up thier speed though that would help tremendously. Which is why I have a Zaal1 plan. Still working on a list, but double swordsmen with Last Stand might be mean to Harkevich. Of course he'll drop his other list and bomb them to smithereens, but maybe that's where the Karax come in... At worst, the feat turn is glorious.
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