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Post by insyderznf on Apr 25, 2017 3:05:05 GMT
Khador has really seemed to be the faction in mk3 that thier casters fix all their weaknesses. Harkevitch is a perfect example. Slow jacks? Cool heres +2 move and pathfinder. Your jacks get knocked down? No problem lets do jumpstart. Your shooting is inaccurate? Cool lets fix that by you shooting more with broadside. Running low on focus and arm 20 not enough? We got you covered with the feat. All that being said 3.2 charging swordmen under feat can kill a jack a turn. So for the cost of your unit and if the dice are nice to you you could hopefully remove 3 jacks just with a full unit if swordsmen during his feat turn. If not feat turn your taking out 4. I wish we had a way to up thier speed though that would help tremendously. Which is why I have a Zaal1 plan. Still working on a list, but double swordsmen with Last Stand might be mean to Harkevich. Of course he'll drop his other list and bomb them to smithereens, but maybe that's where the Karax come in... At worst, the feat turn is glorious. So i spent some time looking at that khador list then went back through all my lists for all my factions and im not sure what beats it. Looking at the stats really nothing wins a head to head battle. Assassination is the best chance for my ret lists, ossrum is best in mercs and zaal is my best in skorne. Im still looking but the khador jacks are just so cheap for how strong they are and that caster covers their weaknesses and buffs thier strengths. |
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demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649 
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Post by demonic on Apr 25, 2017 5:28:52 GMT
yeah, their armor is tough to crack when they are dealing ample amount of damage and have more boxes. Gremlin Swarms do a nice job at removing their more annoying weapons, but you generally need combined arms just to nickel and dime them. An exhalted theme on the charge would be able to KO it, but what happens if you get engaged first?
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zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
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Post by zich on Apr 25, 2017 7:27:34 GMT
Well if you want to go full bonkers try this: conflictchamber.com/#b91b4rcu6v5U6a6a6a6a6aSkorne Army - 75 / 75 points (Zaal 1) Supreme Aptimus Zaal [+26] - Mammoth [38] Extoller Soulward [3] Paingiver Beast Handlers (min) [5] Praetorian Karax (max) [11] Praetorian Karax (max) [11] Praetorian Karax (max) [11] Praetorian Karax (max) [11] Praetorian Karax (max) [11] Also, if you happen to find a way of painting 50 Karax without spiraling into insanity, do tell us how. |
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Post by sardonicartery on Apr 25, 2017 21:07:52 GMT
Well if you want to go full bonkers try this: conflictchamber.com/#b91b4rcu6v5U6a6a6a6a6aSkorne Army - 75 / 75 points (Zaal 1) Supreme Aptimus Zaal [+26] - Mammoth [38] Extoller Soulward [3] Paingiver Beast Handlers (min) [5] Praetorian Karax (max) [11] Praetorian Karax (max) [11] Praetorian Karax (max) [11] Praetorian Karax (max) [11] Praetorian Karax (max) [11] Also, if you happen to find a way of painting 50 Karax without spiraling into insanity, do tell us how. Beautiful. Budget and painting horror, but beautiful. |
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didder
Junior Strategist
Posts: 166
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Post by didder on Apr 25, 2017 21:31:45 GMT
I don't know. Even with 5 dice, karax damage khador jacks at dice -10, and that's not even on his feat turn. Swordsmen spam I'd believe, because yay 6 dice to damage, but good luck having them survive against vent steams, rockets, and widowmakers. Kreas just don't cut it, they'd just shoot the krea down first but they often won't even need to.
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granor
Junior Strategist
Posts: 353
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Post by granor on Apr 25, 2017 22:16:51 GMT
I don't know. Even with 5 dice, karax damage khador jacks at dice -10, Last stand and CMA are your friend |
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Post by Cryptix on Apr 26, 2017 0:03:45 GMT
Could this work? conflictchamber.com/#b91b4r4ygl6u6u6a6c6d6c6dSkorne Army - 75 / 75 points (Zaal 1) Supreme Aptimus Zaal [+26] - Cyclops Brute [8] - Desert Hydra [38] Ancestral Guardian [5] Ancestral Guardian [5] Praetorian Karax (max) [11] Praetorian Swordsmen (max) [13] - Praetorian Swordsman Officer & Standard [4] Praetorian Swordsmen (max) [13] - Praetorian Swordsman Officer & Standard [4] |
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demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649
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Post by demonic on Apr 26, 2017 3:50:45 GMT
hmm, alright, time to "crack" the mystery of how Skorne can stand a chance against Khador WITHOUT going the assassination route. As most people have mentioned, piercing 20+ armor is a pain in the hind side! So we'll have to decide what the best tactica for taking them on would be.
First, most factions have a way to gain additional dice on constructs with models that generally have a decent amount of damage. Those that don't have models that can use armor piercing. Since the only model we have that can give an additional di against constructs is POW 10 and doesn't even have combined arms, well... those two easy solutions are out the window. So now we are looking for something with average rolls above their armor, even if it's slow and lumbering or doesn't hit worth a damn; Khador jacks have an average of 9-10 def unless they sacrifice armor. So, I took down a list of the most effective models against Khador Jacks that we can get, including minion/merc models with a low cost. I must say, I learned just how many models can trump beasts yet not do a damn against jacks x.x;
Skorne Lockology
A list of the most effective warlocks against, strictly, Khador Heavy lists in order of first to last
Xerxis1
Hexy1
Mak2
Zaal2
Morg2
Rasheth
Xerxis2
Warbeasts
An alphabetical order of beasts that are effective without support
Aradus Soldier
Bronzeback Titan
Desert Hydra
Mammoth
Molik Karn
Tiberion
Titan Cannoneer
Titan Gladiator
Solos
An alphabetical list of solos that are particularly effective against Khador Heavies
Hakaar
Task Master (with minion warrior model)
Tyrant Rhadiem
Dakar (with other venator models)
Units
An alphabetical list of units that can reliably kill Khador Heavies
Cataphract + Tyrant Vorkesh (Combined Arms through Vorkesh = 19 + 3 dice for an average of 28 and blessed weapon)
Cataphract Incindiarii
Praetorian Ferox
Praetorian Karax + UA (what? Do the math. Combined average damage roll of 26 on 2 dice and they can see through each other)
Praetorian Swordsmen (UA for effectiveness)
Venator Reavers + UA
Venator Slingers (min unit just for the continuous corrosion)
Merc/Minions
Gremlin Swarm x 2 - yeah they die to magical damage quite easily, but Khador jacks don't have magical and they don't leave incorporeal to screw around with jacks. Average damage per turn is 5 per swarm (max field of 2) and you can choose the column. It is automatic, unaviodable damage as long as the swarm gets within b2b contact
Efaarit Scouts - Armor Piercing brings Khador jacks down to 10-12 arm. Thanks to Marksman, you can choose where your damage goes. They start off at 7 + 2d6, making the average hit 13, well high enough to nickel and dime their 10-12, especially when you can choose which column the damage goes into!
Splatter Boar + Venator Catapult Crew - Lucky shot gives the Catapult a +2 to AoE attack rolls, making it's chance to hit a solid 9. It also allows you to reroll deviation and inches if you happen to miss. The damage on direct hits, however, is 16 +1 against medium and +2 against large models before dice, making it's average damage roll against Khador jacks 24 from 18 inches away! This combo can really spit out some chunks of damage, even against 20 armor and well out of any threat range they may have. Use Lucky Shot on a second one and you now have a decent chance to blow their low def jacks to pieces!
(for those wondering why I didn't add Wrong Eye & Snapjaw, it's because Snapjaw isn't considered a part of your caster's battlegroup)
Basically, if you are looking to maul Khador, these are all the go to models to do so.
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regleant
Junior Strategist
Sometimes things go right
Posts: 267
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Post by regleant on Apr 26, 2017 5:25:33 GMT
Demonic - curious about some of your choices:
- Why not Morg1? His feat buys you a turn of beating face, and you would then out threat Khador.
- Why Hakaar? Dice -7 with 3 attacks and 1 Combo Strike won't add up to much, and he'll readily die in return.
- Why Incendiarii?
- Why Ferox? Dice -6 on the charge, then Dice -8 on the Leaps seems very expensive for 21 points.
- Why Makeda2?
- Why Task Master but no named Minions?
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steck
BattleBox Champ
Posts: 51
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Post by steck on Apr 26, 2017 5:33:09 GMT
Splatter Boar + Venator Catapult Crew - Lucky shot gives the Catapult a +2 to AoE attack rolls, making it's chance to hit a solid 9. It also allows you to reroll deviation and inches if you happen to miss. The damage on direct hits, however, is 16 +1 against medium and +2 against large models before dice, making it's average damage roll against Khador jacks 24 from 18 inches away! This combo can really spit out some chunks of damage, even against 20 armor and well out of any threat range they may have. Use Lucky Shot on a second one and you now have a decent chance to blow their low def jacks to pieces! How are you getting the lucky shot animus onto the catapult crew? In warroom it says target friendly faction. Its still really effective with a dakar instead, the +1 to hit and a special action lets you reroll to hit or to damage. Its also worth noting the reivers dont really need the UA to drop heavies, they still have CRA without the attachment. It just lets them do it with snipe for a turn and repo and another guy to combine. |
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demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649
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Post by demonic on Apr 26, 2017 6:40:05 GMT
well I knew this was going to happen so x.O; steckSince you can add the splatter boar to your caster's battlegroup, he can use the animus on the venator catapult crew x.O; Reivers, with the UA, are more effective at getting the first drop. Once they are engaged they do not have gunfighter to get themselves out of it. regleantHakaar can combo every turn for a 2 inch reached 18 before 2 dice equating to an average of 24. Ghost shield puts his armor up high enough to withstand a decent pounding. Strength of Death allows him to boost that 24 up to an average of 27 while only sacrificing 1 armor. The key is cracking the shell, not removing them from the board in 1 turn. For the incindiarii, do the combined arms count; I thought it'd be obvious but I guess some people prefer not to do math (completely understandable) 13 + 5 = 18. include 2 dice to make it 24 auto fire with a 3 inch template of 12 burst damage and auto fire. Ferox on the charge combines for 18 before getting 3 dice. With 3 dice that's +9 making it 27 with a 3 inch repo and dodge if you have Rhadeim, which you should since he's our only armor peircing model. I didn't name any minions, specifically, for the taskmaster because there were none that could really do the job by themselves. However, using her, several minion units become valid... just not without her. I was also trying to keep points down when it came to minion and merc models. and now where I'm going to get the MOST questions x.x; why did I choose the casters, why did I choose that exact order of casters yadda yadda.  Morg1 cannot handle Khador effectively, even with abuse, he brings nothing additional to the table that any other lock can. His weapon couldn't scratch the paint on a Khador Jack when he has nothing to lower their armor. If he was facing against warbeasts I can see where he could become effective, but facing Warmachine is just a whole nother realm. Of course, I'm talking about killing their jacks more than killing their casters. Doing that, Morg1 could probably rip them to pieces. Mak2... swordsmen get vengeance, adding an additional auto 1 damage for that turn. Stay Death can keep your tarpit in shape enough for the rest of your army to get up there. Storm Ranger on Hakaar or Rhadeim... nuff said there. Dash helps get all of your warriors into position. Her feat makes the vast majority of our beasts auto hit (unless you roll 3 ones *knocks on wood*) their jacks and lets you use their fury to boost and buy attacks instead. |
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regleant
Junior Strategist
Sometimes things go right
Posts: 267
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Post by regleant on Apr 26, 2017 9:24:27 GMT
I see now - you're looking at infantry that can scratch paint. I am hoping for infantry that can wreck in one round. Differences in approach.  Is it worthwhile to spend half of your activations dinging a jack for a couple of points per activation? |
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Post by Cryptix on Apr 26, 2017 10:24:00 GMT
well I knew this was going to happen so x.O; steckSince you can add the splatter boar to your caster's battlegroup, he can use the animus on the venator catapult crew x.O That's,not how minions work.... |
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granor
Junior Strategist
Posts: 353
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Post by granor on Apr 26, 2017 14:33:56 GMT
Ferox on the charge combines for 18 before getting 3 dice. With 3 dice that's +9 making it 27 with a 3 inch repo and dodge if you have Rhadeim, which you should since he's our only armor peircing model. The average of one dice is 3.5 not 3 not a big deal with one dice because I usually round down too but the average of 2 dice is 7 and 3 is 10.5 and 4 is 14. I am not well versed with anydice.com/ but it can help too. |
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steck
BattleBox Champ
Posts: 51
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Post by steck on Apr 26, 2017 15:39:49 GMT
well I knew this was going to happen so x.O; steck Since you can add the splatter boar to your caster's battlegroup, he can use the animus on the venator catapult crew x.O That's,not how minions work.... Im glad its not just me. You could take rorsh and brine to take a splatter boar in their battlegroup, but he still cant ever be in your caster's battlegroup and even if he could the animus still says friendly faction and his faction is minions, A catapult is a skorne model. |
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Is it worthwhile to spend half of your activations dinging a jack for a couple of points per activation?