demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649
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Post by demonic on Apr 27, 2017 0:43:01 GMT
*grumble grumble grumble* yeah it was late when I even started writing that so I missed the technicality on Lucky Shot. Hopefully, one day, we'll get the ability to use it ourselves as it would still be awesome. Oh, and as an FYI, if your caster uses the animus of a member of his battlegroup, being friendly faction would mean your caster's faction, not the model it was originally on, which was my original intent. Lets see... what else... I, and everyone else I've seen calculate average damage and hit output, use "3" as the average per di simply to be on the safe side. It's the difference between looking at things on paper and looking at things on the board. Sure, 6-7-8 are the 3 most likely numbers to come up on 2 dice, but everyone has games where they roll over or under average. I want to know my army is prepared to face off against a difficult opponent even if I'm rolling a little under par, yeah? If you can take out the correct arm, or even just further limit their mobility, jacks become sitting ducks. Once their threat is reduced to the point where they become moot, it is the same thing as destroying them. I made the list taking into consideration everything that can AT LEAST nickel and dime them with a comfortable level of certainty. If you want to know how to completely remove them from the board in a single turn, that's where are buffing and debuffing models come into play, allowing much more damage with the same level of security. There is a reason I put Xerxis1 and Hexy1 at the top of the list ya know
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regleant
Junior Strategist
Sometimes things go right
Posts: 267
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Post by regleant on Apr 27, 2017 3:01:10 GMT
I, and everyone else I've seen calculate average damage and hit output, use "3" as the average per di simply to be on the safe side. It's the difference between looking at things on paper and looking at things on the board. Sure, 6-7-8 are the 3 most likely numbers to come up on 2 dice, but everyone has games where they roll over or under average. I want to know my army is prepared to face off against a difficult opponent even if I'm rolling a little under par, yeah? From my last few games, I learned that the average of 3 dice is 5. Boosted 6's are near impossible to hit!
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demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649
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Post by demonic on Apr 27, 2017 5:09:40 GMT
at least someone understands the using 6 instead of 7 theory, ha, ha, ha! I feel your pain. I've played a game with my Menoth where after 10 fire sprays I only had 4 units lit on fire and 3 dead. You'd think having 10, 8 inch fire templates would let you start a BBQ when you have about 20 small infantry models clustered right in front of you, but noooooo x.x;
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didder
Junior Strategist
Posts: 166
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Post by didder on Apr 27, 2017 15:44:40 GMT
I don't know. Even with 5 dice, karax damage khador jacks at dice -10, Last stand and CMA are your friend It's rare to get more than 4 Karax on a heavy, but even if you get five karax under LS on two different Khador jacks, then they only do 9 damage to each of two jacks. Two karax die, and most of the karax are going to bite it on the opponent's turn even with just the power up focus/vent steams.
Even if you have a second unit of karax who can do the same to a 3rd and 4th jack with LS being cycled to them, that's 4 jacks that each have 2/3rds of their health. On your next turn, you'll have 15-20 of your 30 karax at most, who can do the same thing even without a charge thanks to Zaal1's feat. Maybe you pack in more karax and finish off all four of the damaged jacks.
Now, the Khador player is down to a measly 9 jacks, 7 if he's brought a "balanced" list. Zaal is now down to 10-ish karax and his AG's to handle all that.
Swordsmen would do far better, kodiacs reposition out of their clouds is still a problem charging single would infantry can't solve.
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granor
Junior Strategist
Posts: 353
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Post by granor on Apr 27, 2017 19:08:45 GMT
Last stand and CMA are your friend Two karax die, and most of the karax are going to bite it on the opponent's turn even with just the power up focus/vent steams.
The fact that only the karax that actually attacks under last stand dies is the only point I wanted to make. I agree I don't see how this list trades against heavies but maybe I am missing something.
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demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649
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Post by demonic on Apr 27, 2017 21:03:31 GMT
Karax, with their UA and a 2 inch reach. Karax have combined arms and can see through each other thanks to the UA. charge with 1, attack with the rest, use the one that charged as the center of attack, your average of 4 goes up to an average of 8 and you're running it on 3 dice instead of 2. The math is odd, but through combined arms it works. Sure, you're not going to kill the jack without absolutely perfect dice, but you'll be able to reliably scratch paint without support, which is what that list was for.
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granor
Junior Strategist
Posts: 353
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Post by granor on Apr 27, 2017 21:15:34 GMT
Karax, with their UA and a 2 inch reach. Karax have combined arms and can see through each other thanks to the UA. charge with 1, attack with the rest, use the one that charged as the center of attack, It isn't real clear in your post but for new players: For a combined melee attack to be a charge attack all attacks combining with it must also be charge attacks. If one of the combined attacks is not a charge attack the entire combined attack becomes a non-charge attack. A model must move 3" for the attack to be considered a charge attack and not just get the charge order (this order changed names in all new war but I forget what it is called now)
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Post by sardonicartery on May 26, 2017 18:52:10 GMT
Doesn't sound like anyone found a real solution to the Hark issue.
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Post by Cryptix on May 26, 2017 20:12:10 GMT
Hexeris is my Hark drop. On feat turns the ARM bonus is negated by parasite so Flayer Cannons and Cannonners do good damage, and on non-feat turns a unit of Reivers + a Flayer cannon kill a heavy each. conflictchamber.com/#c9201b_-0k486U6z5D5D6v6vgggg6J6J6p6F6p6FSkorne Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Winds of Death (Hexeris 1) Lord Tyrant Hexeris [+28] - Archidon [10] - Razor Worm [7] - Titan Cannoneer [17] - Titan Cannoneer [17] Extoller Soulward [3] Extoller Soulward [3] Venator Dakar [4] Venator Dakar [4] Venator Flayer Cannon Crew [0(5)] Venator Flayer Cannon Crew [0(5)] Venator Reivers (max) [15] - Venator Reiver Officer & Standard [4] Venator Reivers (max) [15] - Venator Reiver Officer & Standard [4]
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Post by sentinel on May 29, 2017 5:21:32 GMT
I dont have Harkevich in our meta, i have karchev. Check my battle report - both lists should have good chances (zaal1 seems better). Plan is screen with infantry, wait his feat turn, commit everything after his feat. That should kill about 6 heavies, after that he should not be able to recover.
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Post by Qc on Jun 19, 2017 14:27:02 GMT
When I was playing Trolls Ragnor and multiple heavies were a good drop. Great feat, and multiple ARM 20+ beasts + 6 STR swing on beasts. How can i find it in Skorne is my question. In Skorne vs Khador one thing is to have counter to rockets. So 9-12 rockets with 4 maruders/Juggers. I think none infantry spam in game including ghostfleet can take this much shooting. So I will keen to multiple heavies with high ARM. 23 with Krea without any other support seems great, so I would take Tibs, some sentries, maybe mammoth. Not only vs 23 Arm rockets do statisticcly nothing (with singnum Portens 1-2 points dmg per shot), but also multiple shieldguards make almost impossible to destroy one heavy in one turn. So we can assume that under any caster that is capabale of leading bunch of elephants should be a start point - and there is a lot of it in Skorne. When we rule out rocketers out of equation, we will face some of jack spam. Harkievich, Karchev (still) are main issues but still the case is, ARM 20-23-26 jacks with great threat-range. We assume that we're facing massive melee option, because in pair they have strong gunline - Vlad1 or alike. So issues here are (in my opinion): 1) Take and hold or stop their Alpha 2) Retaliate and kill To be honest, Harkevich has issue with focus, after mobility only 3 + 2 from greylords, so their alpha isn't that strong on paper. All can charge, all cane hot you once, nad then innitials, and then 3-5 attacks - all on not so high pow (ok, maraduers have one pow20 shot, but then it's only pow 16). So i don't think that take and hold an alpha is such a strong challange, especially if we are building around some titans. Arm 23 vs melee is a thing (agonizer that is hard to eliminate but jack heavy spam). But there are some casters that can help with that - Xerxis1, Raseth, Naaresh, when you use their feat defensivly. Zaadesh2 and his cloudwall can stop charges which is a great thing (20 vs 23 but only 2 dice? Boost or next attack, still it cost focus and decisions). Cloduwall works great with haley3, so why not here - it is something that i will try for sure. Also Countercharges can change thing or two. So, now we are thinking about second point - destroy. Base pow 18-20 attacks just with painhandelers are to little, and to work with this Skorne offers a lot of damage boosts. In fact 10 caster out of 17 offers some buffs or debuffs in feats or spells that help with that. For example, somtimes positioning you can dare to take alpha only based on bare 23 ARM with casters like Raseth or Naaresh - so now we are talking about +4 PoW on raseth on 2 targets (chanels should make recast -2 arm spell posiblle) or +3 Naaresh AND protect your army. Sorry for my english, and chaotic way of writing, but too sum up, I think elephants are way to go because drop vs Harkievich should also covers rocketers spam. And about casters, i think that most capable of finish the job are raseth, naaresh, xerxis1 (but i don't like this choice because he likes warrior models, and i think that we should fight brick with a bigger brick) or zaadesh2 (but here i think that unusual toolbox of cloudwall and countercharges is a thing. With him you can think about dropping Krea and still threatens rocketeers to the point that opponent won't choose them). But the most important thing is the gameplan and use positioning and terrain to your favour Also I'm looking for feedback because it's mainly theorymachine, and I'm going to play some Zaadesh2 on incoming tournaments with list borrowed from sardonicartery.
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Post by sardonicartery on Jun 19, 2017 16:54:18 GMT
Hark disappeared from most of my meta over the last month -- replaced by Karchev (again), Vlad gunz, and Sorscha1.
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demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649
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Post by demonic on Jun 19, 2017 20:49:58 GMT
Xerxis1 and 2 tend to be the main way to take care of heavy armor for skorne. Because they are easy to hit, Makeda2 can take the side. However, Rasheth, Naaresh, and Zaadesh, while they look good on paper, are not your prime deciders against a full armor heavy list. I should have posted my stampede list somewhere, it needs a little altering but it can handle just about anything if you get the right positioning. Its caster is xerxis2 (+2 speed for battlegroup) and uses beast tamers and a bronze back to help mitigate fury.
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zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
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Post by zich on Jun 20, 2017 8:06:50 GMT
Makeda2 just laughs at Harkevich all day. But in general: Don't try to trade Heavies against the best Heavy-trading faction. It just doesn't work.
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demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649
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Post by demonic on Jun 20, 2017 22:09:53 GMT
this I agree, if you are not taking down more heavies a turn than you are plugging in, you shouldn't bother. My stampede list works because of the increase of threat range and the ability to take down multiple heavies in 1 turn before they can retaliate. When you can reliably remove 2 and disable an additional 2 before they can even make an attack, it doesn't matter if they remove 1 and damage 3 *beast tamer casts lesser heal on beast* x.x;
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