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Post by C0deb1ue on May 17, 2017 15:23:35 GMT
I have yet to see any theme where a dragoon can be taken for free (the character ones anyhow) and they are worded specifically to prevent that. would make you want to take exemplars rather than just jacks... because why would you take exemplars on this list... with Gravus as a solo you would have the anti-knockdown/stationary and could use the infantry to buff him when they died... might make it worth taking some...though never bastions
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Post by jisidro on May 17, 2017 15:45:56 GMT
Problem is you have to build your list to get the free points, aka Exemplar benefit, but blessed comes at the opportunity cost of the character jacks.
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Post by W0lfBane on May 17, 2017 17:25:17 GMT
I have yet to see any theme where a dragoon can be taken for free (the character ones anyhow) and they are worded specifically to prevent that. Defenders of Ios Retribution theme force can add the Fane Knight free of cost.
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Post by C0deb1ue on May 17, 2017 17:53:27 GMT
I have yet to see any theme where a dragoon can be taken for free (the character ones anyhow) and they are worded specifically to prevent that. Defenders of Ios Retribution theme force can add the Fane Knight free of cost. Well clearly I vote that they make him useable, because then even if you only get one free solo.... he will be worth 9 points and buff your exemplars.... It would make list building a little more tricky. But for example you could do something like this... giving you some jacks and some exemplars... obviously avoiding our currently unplayable medium infantry... however if they changed Bastions back to 8 health.. that could potentially open the way to more interesting healing style lists... War Room Army Protectorate of Menoth - New Army Theme: Interdiction 84 / 75 Army (+9 points for Gravus... as the only free solo) <! OVER POINT LIMIT !> Grand Scrutator Severius - WJ: +28 - Reckoner - PC: 16 (Battlegroup Points Used: 16) - Blessing of Vengeance - PC: 13 (Battlegroup Points Used: 12) - Redeemer - PC: 11 Vessel of Judgment - PC: 18 Knights Exemplar Seneschal - PC: 5 Vassal Mechanik - PC: 1 Vassal Mechanik - PC: 1 High Exemplar Gravus - PC: 9 Exemplar Errants - Leader & 9 Grunts: 16 - Exemplar Errant Officer & Standard - Officer & Standard: 4 Knights Exemplar - Leader & 5 Grunts: 9 - Knights Exemplar Officer - PC: 5 Choir of Menoth - Leader & 3 Grunts: 4 Obviously all very much wishful thinking....
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Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on May 17, 2017 18:55:19 GMT
This theme will be great with Vindy, because he actually helps fix the flaws exemplars have. However, disappointingly, I have easily made over half a dozen Exemplar Interdiction lists with no exemplars at all. Because Blessed weapons, including guns, on jacks is stupidly good. Indictor, amusingly, need no longer apply. Too bad PP can't find ways to plug these loopholes. I'm sure this is just #designspace for #options though, right? Exemplar theme forces with all jacks and no exemplar. Totally intentional. I find it even more amusing because that blessed is worth the entire jack's worth of points you're not getting from creator's might instead: anyone who can hand out blessed doesn't want a massive battlegroup. Creator's Might is basically Malekus, because of Eye, Harbinger's Metal Mountain(have confirmed this still works), and certain flavors of Kreoss 1 and Reznik 1. Everyone else is best served by Blessed and 2 inches, even with having to cast their upkeeps again.
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demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649
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Post by demonic on May 17, 2017 19:32:57 GMT
I disagree with you utterly and completely. I thus then demand that the choir only have the +2 Buff to Damage Option, and remove any thing I dislike, have trouble with, or Gives Menoth any flavor because I said so because I chose that it doesn't matter in the meta. x.x; yeah you and I tend to bump heads a lot. When lowering Khador armor to 19, you'd have to lower all other large based armor by 1 as well. The issue is how and when you boost. For Khador jacks, you have to boost on every damage roll that is lower than 15 to reliably do ANY damage. However, you only need to boost on damage rolls that are lower than 14 for 19 armor. On the other hand, with Khador, you don't have to boost for hit as long as your mat/rat is at least 3. However, average mat/rat is 5-6, making 11 no different from 9 during the selection process of where and when you plan on boosting. Further decreasing their defense does little to increase the handicap as having lower than 12 def already breaks the same thresh-hold. In order to alter that you must alter the average mat/rat. Hopefully that makes sense
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on May 17, 2017 19:47:31 GMT
x.x; yeah you and I tend to bump heads a lot. Eh no problem. Design ethos difference I suppose. My point is that your standard for what is average or not is pretty arbitrary in my book and linear. Average for a Heavy? Average for a Low Cost Trooper? Average for an ELITE Trooper? Does that count ease of Clouds and terrain at ranged? Is it with the Focus Mechanic? Or Fury Mechanic? Is it speed 4 or 5 or 6? Your argument exists in a vacuum where there are two Jacks in one spot, that both only get 1 attack each. Lower Defense then 12, really begins to help when multiple attacks come into place. A Mat 7 will miss 1/5 Attacks on a Defense 12, but essentially 100% on Defense 10. And this is crucial to certain stuff that do high damage but aren't accurate.
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thelat
Junior Strategist
Posts: 480
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Post by thelat on May 17, 2017 20:29:43 GMT
Here'so my contribution to this:
War Room Army
Protectorate of Menoth - Thyra test
Theme: No Theme Selected 89 / 75 Army
<! OVER POINT LIMIT !>
Thyra, Flame of Sorrow - WJ: +29 - Blood of Martyrs - PC: 16 (Battlegroup Points Used: 16)
High Exemplar Gravus - PC: 9 Knights Exemplar Seneschal - PC: 5 Wrack - PC: 1
Choir of Menoth - Leader & 3 Grunts: 4 Knights Exemplar - Leader & 5 Grunts: 9 - Knights Exemplar Officer - PC: 5 Exemplar Errants - Leader & 9 Grunts: 16 - Exemplar Errant Officer & Standard - Officer & Standard: 4 Exemplar Bastions - Leader & 4 Grunts: 16 Exemplar Vengers - Leader & 4 Grunts: 20
It fits in the points with the Exemplar theme. The plan, which has worked pretty well in the past for me, is threat saturation. It's a lot of weaponmaster bodies on the table, and while the Bastions are really slow, the list should be crashing into the enemy list over and over again. It doesn't matter if the line that just charged gets destroyed because the next line is going to charge right after that. Between Vengers, Knights with UA, and assaulting Errants, the list should be generating a lot more attacks than its opponent.
I also like Blood of Martyrs having apparition and blessed, grievous wounds, side-stepping, takedown weapons.
Thoughts?
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Post by perilsensitive on May 17, 2017 21:29:37 GMT
Saturation definitely works. I went a different route.
Testament -Crusader -Crusader -Devout
Vessel (CID version, of course) - 18 Vengers - 20 Cinerators - 16 Knights Exemplar - 9 -UA (free) Knights Exemplar - 9 -UA (free) Mechanik - 1
The idea is to get everything pissed with Righteous Vengeance, Hallowed Avenger or Vengeance, and keep reviving to overwhelm with angry weaponmasters. Crusaders strictly on mop up duty (but you could have a Crusader and a Reckoner or something if you prefer, which would allow you to get a wrack and another mechanik or something). Feat effectively gives Pathfinder everywhere (which is the only non-Vinny way to get any amount of it). Vessel heals the multi-wound guys, is a useful gun, and can Door angry weaponmasters, further winning on attrition. It also gives Tom a place to hide if necessary.
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Post by macdaddy on May 18, 2017 1:44:58 GMT
Saturation definitely works. I went a different route. Testament -Crusader -Crusader -Devout Vessel (CID version, of course) - 18 Vengers - 20 Cinerators - 16 Knights Exemplar - 9 -UA (free) Knights Exemplar - 9 -UA (free) Mechanik - 1 The idea is to get everything pissed with Righteous Vengeance, Hallowed Avenger or Vengeance, and keep reviving to overwhelm with angry weaponmasters. Crusaders strictly on mop up duty (but you could have a Crusader and a Reckoner or something if you prefer, which would allow you to get a wrack and another mechanik or something). Feat effectively gives Pathfinder everywhere (which is the only non-Vinny way to get any amount of it). Vessel heals the multi-wound guys, is a useful gun, and can Door angry weaponmasters, further winning on attrition. It also gives Tom a place to hide if necessary. This is really similar to the list I'm working on with testamemt but the Vengers are another unit of cinerators and I tossed errabts in there. The issue with this list is your threat ranges are rediculously low and your army is stagnated to predictable advance. It's really easy to gun down and RFP just poops all over you in so many ways it's just depressing. Not to mention testamemt doesn't collect souls from e leaps and other things that "aren't considered attacks" It works but there's a lot out there that counters it and this is from a guy who loves testamemt.
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demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649
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Post by demonic on May 18, 2017 2:33:16 GMT
x.x; yeah you and I tend to bump heads a lot. Eh no problem. Design ethos difference I suppose. My point is that your standard for what is average or not is pretty arbitrary in my book and linear. Average for a Heavy? Average for a Low Cost Trooper? Average for an ELITE Trooper? Does that count ease of Clouds and terrain at ranged? Is it with the Focus Mechanic? Or Fury Mechanic? Is it speed 4 or 5 or 6? Your argument exists in a vacuum where there are two Jacks in one spot, that both only get 1 attack each. Lower Defense then 12, really begins to help when multiple attacks come into place. A Mat 7 will miss 1/5 Attacks on a Defense 12, but essentially 100% on Defense 10. And this is crucial to certain stuff that do high damage but aren't accurate. As far as Mat and Rat, 5 is average across all factions, regardless of base size. As for damage, it's closer to 15-16 for large bases, 12-13 on medium, and 11 on small bases, I'm using all factions except minion and merc mashed together to get these averages, while removing point cost (a very important component) from the playing board. As for the issues, I'm using double dice rolls and when it is necessary to boost for either attack or damage. Khador is skewed high on the armor and damage spectrum, yet lacks in speed (base 4) and defense (base 9). Average heavies very in armor, but 17-18 seems to be a good median, while a base of 19 is reserved for special heavies, Menoth, and Skorne. Khador, on the other hand, has a minimum of 20 while having the same movement speed as Menoth and Skorne. Where Menoth and Skorne surpass Khador is in defense with Menoth averaging 11 (including those with Ashen Veil) and Skorne also sitting at 11. However, the average mat/rat of any model is 5, meaning the average roll is 11, meaning the likeliness of boosting against 11 is just as high as boosting against 9, regardless of the model. This allows the person to take the same amount of swings and boosted damage rolls against both, crushing the Menoth and Skorne heavies in a much easier fashion than that of Khador. Would 1 more defense to Menoth and Skorne heavies make all the difference? actually, yes. Whenever you roll with a mat or rat of 4 or 5 you would then be forced to boost or take the risk, while not having to do so against Khador. At the same time, if a model has over average mat and rat you would no longer need to boost for hit. In this fashion, you would be forced to use a focus or force a beast to do something OTHER than damage, giving Khador its rightful place of being the only one where you actually HAVE to boost damage on average dice to scratch paint.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on May 18, 2017 2:45:07 GMT
As far as Mat and Rat, 5 is average across all factions, regardless of base size. I'm saying that's a flawed point of comparison because being Mat or Rat 5 doesn't necessarily mean anything. Most of Khadors big hitters (Bread and Butter Units) hit at Mat or Rat 7. Battle Mechanics are Mat 5 for instance, but they aren't really used in melee. Your selection continues to be completely arbitrary and doesn't take into compartmentalized roles in combat. Its like saying that the Bus is the best car because it carries the most amount of people, and should be nerfed to carry a maximum of 5 people, because on avarage, most vehicles only have capacity for 4.
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demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649
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Post by demonic on May 18, 2017 3:55:37 GMT
um, actually it's like saying a bus's maximum capacity is larger than that of a van, thus it is better at transporting a large number of people from point "a" to point "b." Without taking into consideration the amount the bus costs. I didn't do this because I thought you already knew that a large based Khador unit is less expensive than a Skorne larged base unit with the same stats.
You are right, average mat and rat gets skewed because there are artillery with a rat of 1 and big hitters with a mat of 7. However, you've only increased my reasoning. Khador's bread and butter units are at Mat or Rat 7, making their average hit an assign number of 13, only further supporting that Khador's math is heavily skewed in its favor. We could really get into it and break it all down, even the warmachine/horde mechanics and in the end it wouldn't change a thing other than amping up the proof that Khador has a distinct advantage over factions with beasts and jacks within the 18-19 armor range.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on May 18, 2017 4:18:25 GMT
um, actually it's like saying a bus's maximum capacity is larger than that of a van, thus it is better at transporting a large number of people from point "a" to point "b." You 193% arbitrarily define that the end goal of the argument, but completely disregard how the bus can be worse in any other situation whatsoever. You go: "The Bus Carries more people from Point A To B so it should be nerfed" But I go "But the point of vehicles isn't necessarily to just ferry people. The speed and efficiency, mobility, and ease of use, and flexibility as a mode of transport since it isn't public is also very important to a vehicle, just because cars don't carry more people, doesn't make them worse." And you proceed to reply with ".....But it carries more people from A to B so it should be nerfed" My entire point is that your limiting all the factors in the game to arbitrarily selected elements, and then when it wins in those arbitrarily selected elements, you then arbitrarily demand nerfs and overhaul to faction identity because your binary view of the world defines it as such.
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demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649
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Post by demonic on May 18, 2017 4:58:56 GMT
um, actually it's like saying a bus's maximum capacity is larger than that of a van, thus it is better at transporting a large number of people from point "a" to point "b." You 193% arbitrarily define that the end goal of the argument, but completely disregard how the bus can be worse in any other situation whatsoever. You go: "The Bus Carries more people from Point A To B so it should be nerfed" But I go "But the point of vehicles isn't necessarily to just ferry people. The speed and efficiency, mobility, and ease of use, and flexibility as a mode of transport since it isn't public is also very important to a vehicle, just because cars don't carry more people, doesn't make them worse." And you proceed to reply with ".....But it carries more people from A to B so it should be nerfed" My entire point is that your limiting all the factors in the game to arbitrarily selected elements, and then when it wins in those arbitrarily selected elements, you then arbitrarily demand nerfs and overhaul to faction identity because your binary view of the world defines it as such. x.O; so what type of speed, efficiency, mobility, ease of use, or flexibility might you be talking about? I could have swore I flat out stated that a model with Khador's stats would cost more points if it was in a separate faction. When I say stats, I mean the entire damn card, abilities and everything. You'll see many people arguing about this factor, Khador pays for what it doesn't have, not for what it DOES have. It doesn't have super abilities like e-leap, nor do their jacks have the ability to head butt/slam with additional force. They lack a focal point like eyeless sight, pathfinder, stealth, or any of that jack. What they do have is superior stats across the board that allows them to easily deal with such abilities with ease and even casters that can flip the speed skew on its hind legs. The reason Khador loses is because of amateur players playing against skilled opponents. In my meta, our highest win ratio player is a Khador player, yet even he rates our Cryx/Merc player at a higher skill level. Khador does have its weaknesses, no doubt, but only the most powerful factions in the game *cough*Cygnar*cough* can take advantage of them without eating dirt.
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