|
Post by Charistoph on Sept 20, 2018 3:12:41 GMT
Immortals being tough makes no fluffy sense whatsoever. They're statues, they don't tough it out. I won't complain about getting some other benefit, and I certainly wouldn't complain about a power increase on the AG's and Hakaar. I'm not sure Zaal1 needs much of anything except for a way to put Kovaas into play if there's no Exalted solo for him to come out of. Maybe as an afterthought for the feat, If Kovaas hasn't been placed on the board, place within 3" of Zaal. Zaal2, I'll take whatever I get. They are animated statues. They shouldn't be moving at all. Tough would be more that it is harder to disable them in the first place, then continuing past normal disability.
|
|
skormedlover87
Junior Strategist
Desperately searching for days off to game...
Posts: 517
|
Post by skormedlover87 on Sept 20, 2018 3:45:37 GMT
Immortals being tough makes no fluffy sense whatsoever. They're statues, they don't tough it out. I won't complain about getting some other benefit, and I certainly wouldn't complain about a power increase on the AG's and Hakaar. I'm not sure Zaal1 needs much of anything except for a way to put Kovaas into play if there's no Exalted solo for him to come out of. Maybe as an afterthought for the feat, If Kovaas hasn't been placed on the board, place within 3" of Zaal. Zaal2, I'll take whatever I get. They are animated statues. They shouldn't be moving at all. Tough would be more that it is harder to disable them in the first place, then continuing past normal disability. I'd like to see that expressed in a different way. None of the rules I'm thinking of quite do it. Unyielding is the closest. Honestly I'd love to see something like opponents are -1 dice damage on charges against them. In the realm of arm 17-21 that's pretty survivable against non WM infantry. Though instead of straight survivability I'd like something like Mage Static as an attached rule to Immortals. Really up the spell hate in theme.
|
|
zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
|
Post by zich on Sept 20, 2018 5:13:03 GMT
I was thinking tough because you could literally chop of an arm at the shoulder and they wouldn't feel it. Any other survivability benefit would be fine too though. Maybe something that grants +2 DEF or +2ARM vs ranged and magic attacks?
As for Zaal1, that guy has 26WBP. That's just unnecessarily low. At 28 he'd be much more flexible when it comes to list building.
The theme benefit changes I think are necessary. The Death Rage benefit doesn't have to be replaced with a beast-centric one. It just has to be an in-game benefit, which free soul allocation would be.
|
|
bacon
Junior Strategist
Posts: 134
|
Post by bacon on Sept 20, 2018 5:18:12 GMT
I think tough is cool thematically as I imagine the exalted fighting through severe damage to their bodies without relenting. I'm not sure if it would be good or not mechanically as I haven't played any immortals lists yet.
|
|
zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
|
Post by zich on Sept 20, 2018 5:32:51 GMT
Well if the new solo indeed grants Steady it would be great, possibly even broken.
Until your opponent figures out that they just need to kill that solo.
|
|
|
Post by Charistoph on Sept 20, 2018 6:11:59 GMT
They are animated statues. They shouldn't be moving at all. Tough would be more that it is harder to disable them in the first place, then continuing past normal disability. I'd like to see that expressed in a different way. None of the rules I'm thinking of quite do it. Unyielding is the closest. Honestly I'd love to see something like opponents are -1 dice damage on charges against them. In the realm of arm 17-21 that's pretty survivable against non WM infantry.
That could be interesting. There are many ways of doing it. It could also be set up as part of the Defense mechanism in that just knowing where to hit the guys to do ANY damage could be a factor, but that may be stretching the concept. Also, keep in mind that any thing they add like that to Immortals we may end up facing against the Circle's Constructs as well.
Though instead of straight survivability I'd like something like Mage Static as an attached rule to Immortals. Really up the spell hate in theme. Natively? I couldn't agree. As part of an Attachment, Solo Aura/Granted/Tactics, or Exalted Theme Bonus, maybe.
|
|
skormedlover87
Junior Strategist
Desperately searching for days off to game...
Posts: 517
|
Post by skormedlover87 on Sept 20, 2018 6:29:07 GMT
Fortunately, circle constructs have already gone through CiD and are performing admirably. It'll probably be forever and a day before they get another sweeping update, unless they get a whole new construct infantry release. Doubtful.
Anyway, I just don't want to throw tough on everything. Practically our entire force is already or can be made tough. Cataphracts? Tough Praetorians, Venators, Beast Handlers? Willbreaker tough Literally everything except Bloodrunners in Disciples? Tough
It's helpful sure, but it can't be relied upon, calculated for and it's heavily teched against. It's extremely random. I'd prefer something that gave a bit more flavor and uniqueness.
Here's a thought for Immortals. Give them Hard. It's situational, but very fitting.
P.S. Zaal1 comes with fewer beast points because he comes with a powerful solo.
|
|
zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
|
Post by zich on Sept 20, 2018 8:46:02 GMT
I don't buy the "but that caster comes with X" argument. Kovaas summoning is part of Zaal's kit. It's not more powerful than the things other casters do. Building lists with the guy is awkward and I want it to be less so.
|
|
gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
|
Post by gordo on Sept 20, 2018 13:17:37 GMT
I always felt that Zaal1 should have a special rule that allows him to take Ancestral Guardians in lists other Exalted at FA1. Pretty much think all the casters that have some kind of "elite cadre" or similar rule should get something like this.
Alternatively, they could make Ancestral Guardians available in other themes. This would break probably nothing as they are pretty much garbage in anything but Exalted anyway, but it would give Zaals some better play outside Exalted.
Can the Supreme Guardian spawn Kovaas?
|
|
|
Post by elladan52 on Sept 20, 2018 13:23:36 GMT
I always felt that Zaal1 should have a special rule that allows him to take Ancestral Guardians in lists other Exalted at FA1. Pretty much think all the casters that have some kind of "elite cadre" or similar rule should get something like this. Alternatively, they could make Ancestral Guardians available in other themes. This would break probably nothing as they are pretty much garbage in anything but Exalted anyway, but it would give Zaals some better play outside Exalted. Can the Supreme Guardian spawn Kovaas? I suggested this during the Exemplar CID because of Kreoss3, it would also fix a big issue with Mordikaar. Sadly, now that Iona is a thing this seems extremely unlikely to be a blanket rule. She has such a general Elite Cadre that it would not work.
|
|
|
Post by Charistoph on Sept 20, 2018 14:10:51 GMT
That could actually be Zaal1's Elite Cadre rule, though. It doesn't do anything else for the Guardian but allow them to be taken in Themes they're not normally allowed. It would be no different then the Bonds that Character Warbeasts get. If you want that something extra... He gives Ancestral Guardians Weaponmaster (specifically to avoid the issue with the Supreme having it).
|
|
|
Post by coolguyclay on Sept 20, 2018 16:41:45 GMT
Ancestral GuardiansWeapon Master is too powerful with bought attacks, I really think weaponmaster is what they need to bring the theme up to the power level of other factions. Since they are slow and so easy to hit, maybe it would give a target priority dilemma as they come in. They are easy to take out if opponent wants to, but if WM, there would be a big difference between a 0 soul and a 3 soul AG! Currently, are AG's only useful with Zaal1 for Last Stand and Kovaas spawning? I guess Zaal2 Feat and Aura of Power + bought attacks would be second place, but does any other warlock make use of them in a cool way?
|
|
granor
Junior Strategist
Posts: 353
|
Post by granor on Sept 20, 2018 17:51:22 GMT
I really think weaponmaster is what they need to bring the theme up to the power level of other factions. Since they are slow and so easy to hit, maybe it would give a target priority dilemma as they come in. They are easy to take out if opponent wants to, but if WM, there would be a big difference between a 0 soul and a 3 soul AG! Currently, are AG's only useful with Zaal1 for Last Stand and Kovaas spawning? I guess Zaal2 Feat and Aura of Power + bought attacks would be second place, but does any other warlock make use of them in a cool way? Not really they are brought because immortal are terrible without the extra move but they are super easy to hit and become problems inside your own lines when your opponent has AOEs, spells, or other effects that "jump" off a model. If an opponent lets say another skorne player playing turtles, knows how immortant they are you are most likely going to lose that game.
My main issues with the AGs are they are weak, easily killed, and nearly required to get immortals and therefore the exalted theme working. They are also expensive when you have to actually pay for them.
|
|
skormedlover87
Junior Strategist
Desperately searching for days off to game...
Posts: 517
|
Post by skormedlover87 on Sept 20, 2018 18:12:51 GMT
I don't buy the "but that caster comes with X" argument. Kovaas summoning is part of Zaal's kit. It's not more powerful than the things other casters do. Building lists with the guy is awkward and I want it to be less so. It doesn't matter whether or not you "buy it". Casters that come with solos, units, attachments and or special stuff outside their own model usually have less points associated with them. That's the way it is. If you can find a good reason for him to go up by a point or something, they might do that, but probably not. Whenever they've changed the number of battlegroup points a caster has, it seems very random.
|
|
skormedlover87
Junior Strategist
Desperately searching for days off to game...
Posts: 517
|
Post by skormedlover87 on Sept 20, 2018 18:15:57 GMT
That could actually be Zaal1's Elite Cadre rule, though. It doesn't do anything else for the Guardian but allow them to be taken in Themes they're not normally allowed. It would be no different then the Bonds that Character Warbeasts get. If you want that something extra... He gives Ancestral Guardians Weaponmaster (specifically to avoid the issue with the Supreme having it). I've asked, in person, about this a year ago with Pagani. At the time he said it was a flat no, that it would never happen. Those sort of decisions change over time, but it's a drum I'd stop banging.
|
|