skormedlover87
Junior Strategist
Desperately searching for days off to game...
Posts: 517
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Post by skormedlover87 on Sept 3, 2018 18:12:40 GMT
Change Ancestral Guardians to be a 1 per unit WA, create new solos. Edit: seriously why aren't there a Firetruckin million character immortals? Aren't they supposed to be the best of the best in a culture that values weird and exotic weapons and fighting styles? One would think. I've heard that none of the sculptors like working on Skorne infantry. Beasts yes, dudes no. Not that we aren't loved by some in house, but plenty of people have a definite distaste for Skorne. Sometimes I feel that slows down or reduces our releases. I've thought about making the base AG's as WA. That would be interesting for sure. Or make them the CA and switch the rules around on the Advocates to be WA's. That all probably requires a bunch of new solos though.
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Post by Charistoph on Sept 3, 2018 19:11:28 GMT
Change Ancestral Guardians to be a 1 per unit WA, create new solos. Edit: seriously why aren't there a Firetruckin million character immortals? Aren't they supposed to be the best of the best in a culture that values weird and exotic weapons and fighting styles? One would think. I've heard that none of the sculptors like working on Skorne infantry. Beasts yes, dudes no. Not that we aren't loved by some in house, but plenty of people have a definite distaste for Skorne. Sometimes I feel that slows down or reduces our releases. I've thought about making the base AG's as WA. That would be interesting for sure. Or make them the CA and switch the rules around on the Advocates to be WA's. That all probably requires a bunch of new solos though. A new Extoller Solo is already coming in, as well as a new Character Guardian. So, a bunch of new models really isn't necessary. At most, we'd either be looking at a new construct model to become the new Attachment or Solo depending on the direction you took the Ancestral Guardian.
And I can understand the lack of desire to model Skorne warriors. There is a ton of detail on them with all sorts of fillagree and such, and when you figure the "cracks" in the construct warriors, it gets real fiddly.
One thing to remember, the weapons the Immortals and Guardians use are not standard equipment for the praetorians and cataphracts we have seen so far. The closest we've see to a halberd is Cidaar's Naginata in the Legends. The Keltariis' glaive is double-bladed which opens up an entirely new fighting style to a halberd. The only ones to use 2h swords are Tyrants and Nihilators. Being an expert in spear and shield doesn't really prepare one for the massive blade of an Immortal.
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Post by MrHaystacks on Sept 18, 2018 14:58:01 GMT
What if the AG's were the light beasts that MoW's are for Khador's lights? Give the AG's sac pawn Immortal to save them from sniping and ignore weaponmaster for simple huge pow. Possibly a new solo AG with a shield and spear? set defence, more armour, defensive strike, brutal charge?
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zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
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Post by zich on Sept 18, 2018 17:48:15 GMT
Th AGs need something, preferably damage. Wepaon Master, POW buff, whatever. Not sure why Sac Pawn though. I've never had them sniped before.
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Sept 18, 2018 18:47:49 GMT
Gang or Flank(Immortal) for the AGs. Also since they are called Guardians, I could see them getting Shield Guard. Defensive Strike doesn't really defend other people that well, nor does it ever really seem to come up since they so rarely in the front
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boozy
Junior Strategist
Posts: 429
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Post by boozy on Sept 18, 2018 21:17:03 GMT
Th AGs need something, preferably damage. Wepaon Master, POW buff, whatever. Not sure why Sac Pawn though. I've never had them sniped before. Who is saying Sacrificial Pawn? That aside, I can see a fluff argument for it. Immortals are really just chaff, the cadre that died accompanying a great hero. Extollers routinely replace soul stones in new statues. If AGs did become WA/UA style model with Sac Pawn, then Immortals basically become a delivery vehicle for them. Kinda like an Exarch or 'Nob back in my 40k days. Not necessarily a bad thing, but not something I thought PP embraced.
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zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
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Post by zich on Sept 19, 2018 5:26:32 GMT
MrHaystacks proposed it. I don't see AGs or any models for that matter changing type. That is unprecedented for CID.
Random though: I think a huge issue with the CID will be that a lot of non-Skorne players don't know the rules for Skorne models or haven't seen much of the faction on the table. I've seen some very false assumptions in the past and those are probably grounded in Skorne not being a popular faction, especially in the US. While there was a lot of drama over the past CIDs with accusations of certain playerbases lobbying for or against certain factions (and I have no idea whether that was true or false and neither do I want to know), I think for us the bigger issue will be misinformation. So if that is true, what do we do? I mean aside from providing honest, playtested feedback with as high a quality as we can manage. We either have to approach the T&L section with zen-like calmness or ignore it alltogether. What I think we should not do is engage in turtle nerf discussions. The nerf will come or it won't. There's no need for us to get bogged down like the Legion players did with the hellmouth. The "discussions" (=flame wars) around that model took so much attention away from testing the other models.
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boozy
Junior Strategist
Posts: 429
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Post by boozy on Sept 19, 2018 6:29:03 GMT
MrHaystacks proposed it. I don't see AGs or any models for that matter changing type. That is unprecedented for CID. When did the Agonizer become a warbeast? Was that at edition change, or during emergency hotpatch version after? I agree though, a type change is highly unlikely.
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zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
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Post by zich on Sept 19, 2018 8:21:13 GMT
It was during the initial Mk3 screwup.
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Sept 19, 2018 13:37:53 GMT
MrHaystacks proposed it. I don't see AGs or any models for that matter changing type. That is unprecedented for CID. Random though: I think a huge issue with the CID will be that a lot of non-Skorne players don't know the rules for Skorne models or haven't seen much of the faction on the table. I've seen some very false assumptions in the past and those are probably grounded in Skorne not being a popular faction, especially in the US. While there was a lot of drama over the past CIDs with accusations of certain playerbases lobbying for or against certain factions (and I have no idea whether that was true or false and neither do I want to know), I think for us the bigger issue will be misinformation. So if that is true, what do we do? I mean aside from providing honest, playtested feedback with as high a quality as we can manage. We either have to approach the T&L section with zen-like calmness or ignore it alltogether. What I think we should not do is engage in turtle nerf discussions. The nerf will come or it won't. There's no need for us to get bogged down like the Legion players did with the hellmouth. The "discussions" (=flame wars) around that model took so much attention away from testing the other models. I'm genuinely hoping that they don't even include the Derple in the CiD. It's not part of the Exalted theme, and it's so tilting for so many players that it can't possibly be evaluated fairly. What I can say is, if you look at the WTC results, Skorne got trounced, so while it may warp the entire faction, it doesn't seem to be enough to get us to win... I'm actually fine with it seeing a slight nerf, assuming the rest of the faction gets a buff, but I just don't want to waste CiD time on it or even let the masses have a say. Watching recent CiDs I've lost faith in the community's ability to get things done or even be rational.
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zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
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Post by zich on Sept 19, 2018 14:05:35 GMT
Well here's the good news. You are the community. If you act rationally, then that makes the community more rational.
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Post by coolguyclay on Sept 19, 2018 19:27:55 GMT
I like Exalted models and would like a reason to use them outside the Exalted theme. Making them work so well together almost forces them into theme, and only theme, because of what we'd give up to use them elsewhere. It's a list building problem, in my mind, to need an AG so Immortals are their best. And then if you have some Exalted you might as well take all Exalted for a theme bonus, otherwise you're giving up on theme bonuses/freebies from other themes and so Exalted models only ever play in one theme, one list.
Ancestral Guardians Regarding AGs, I guess my suggestion is that Resonance would be a good theme bonus. And change the AG to have value outside the theme. Weapon Master is too powerful with bought attacks, maybe Cleave? Or maybe Flank: FF Warrior Unit? I'd like some reason to add this 5pt solo into any other list with any other warlock, and can never find a reason to do so. Supporting a unit of Swordmens with Flank sounds thematic and adds strong, potential support.
Zaal2 Feat Another suggestion for CID is Zaal2's feat. It needs a lot of Exalted models to be useful, and at that point you want to be in theme. So it's Zaal2 in theme with maybe useful feat or Zaal2 out of theme with basically self-only feat. Aura of Power, Vision, cheap units for massive soul shennanigans has a lot of potential with units out of theme (Legends of Haalak + Karax come to mind), but then his feat is useless. Perhaps switch his feat and Mage Sight? Add a spell that compliments Exalted models (1 Rd, non-upkeep Inviolable Resolve for Exalted? Or +5 ARM for single exalted model/unit?) and/or ability like Zaal1 to spend a single Fury to heal all Exalted one point of damage. Then a feat is Mage Sight-like that grants Eyeless Sight to FF models in CTL (and heal Exalted models if that's not an ability).
Zaal2 Spells Annihilation --> Annihilators (UP) would be a fun spell swap, where living enemy models destroyed by target FF unit/model give their souls to Zaal2. Would make Zaal2 more of a caster that helps his list, rather than having to do it all himself (with bucket-o-souls ; )
Also, since Sunder Spirit is on Zaal1's card, I'd kind of like either one to get swapper with another cheap bolt-spell. I bet there are others - the variety is fun.
Theme Bonuses Also, +1 Soul Tokens and the free models are great for the theme, but I always forget about Death Rage. Is it good? Maybe just "warbeasts produce souls" instead to capitalize on the soul mechanic. Or, Spirit Bond can add a Soul Token or Fury for each Med/Lg dead beast (Mordikaar and Zaal2 would like this, wording could allow either Zaal to Direct Spirits).
Just throwing some things out there. Do you feel limited with Exalted models always and only being used in Exalted theme?
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zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
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Post by zich on Sept 19, 2018 19:58:32 GMT
What I would like to see:
1) Rules consolidation. Explaining how this theme operates to an opponent takes forever. Remove Resonance, make Immortals and AGs flat SPD5. Remove the +2" movement thingy from the AGs and give them Righteous Vengeance. 2) Replace the silly Death Rage bonus with something the theme needs. What it needs to be viable with anyone except for the Zaals is the ability to assign souls however you see fit instead of by range.
Now, with these two changes in place, the theme is actually functional and mechanically elegant. Now to add power until it matches up with other themes:
1) Immortals gain Tough. 2) AGs (and Hakaar) gain +2 STR (P+S15).
As for the Zaals: 1) Zaal1 gains 2-4 WBP. 2) Zaal2 replaces Annihilator with something useful.
And with that I think the Exhalted side of things would look rather well.
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granor
Junior Strategist
Posts: 353
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Post by granor on Sept 19, 2018 21:40:54 GMT
Ancestral GuardiansWeapon Master is too powerful with bought attacks, I really think weaponmaster is what they need to bring the theme up to the power level of other factions. Theme BonusesMaybe just "warbeasts produce souls" instead to capitalize on the soul mechanic. warbeasts already give souls. Our soul collection is no longer limited to warrior models on most things that collect souls now. Immortal UA I THINK is the only exception?
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skormedlover87
Junior Strategist
Desperately searching for days off to game...
Posts: 517
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Post by skormedlover87 on Sept 20, 2018 2:25:00 GMT
What I would like to see: 1) Rules consolidation. Explaining how this theme operates to an opponent takes forever. Remove Resonance, make Immortals and AGs flat SPD5. Remove the +2" movement thingy from the AGs and give them Righteous Vengeance. 2) Replace the silly Death Rage bonus with something the theme needs. What it needs to be viable with anyone except for the Zaals is the ability to assign souls however you see fit instead of by range. Now, with these two changes in place, the theme is actually functional and mechanically elegant. Now to add power until it matches up with other themes: 1) Immortals gain Tough. 2) AGs (and Hakaar) gain +2 STR (P+S15). As for the Zaals: 1) Zaal1 gains 2-4 WBP. 2) Zaal2 replaces Annihilator with something useful. And with that I think the Exhalted side of things would look rather well. Movement shenanigans wise, I'm fine with the proposed change. It simplifies things while there's not really a reason to make you "want" to take the Exalted pieces synergisticly, themes take care of that. As far as a beast benefit, I'm not attached to Death Rage, but whatever it may be, it'll be a beast related benefit. That's the way themes work. Immortals being tough makes no fluffy sense whatsoever. They're statues, they don't tough it out. I won't complain about getting some other benefit, and I certainly wouldn't complain about a power increase on the AG's and Hakaar. I'm not sure Zaal1 needs much of anything except for a way to put Kovaas into play if there's no Exalted solo for him to come out of. Maybe as an afterthought for the feat, If Kovaas hasn't been placed on the board, place within 3" of Zaal. Zaal2, I'll take whatever I get.
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