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Post by Charistoph on Sept 20, 2018 18:34:46 GMT
I don't buy the "but that caster comes with X" argument. Kovaas summoning is part of Zaal's kit. It's not more powerful than the things other casters do. Building lists with the guy is awkward and I want it to be less so. It doesn't matter whether or not you "buy it". Casters that come with solos, units, attachments and or special stuff outside their own model usually have less points associated with them. That's the way it is. If you can find a good reason for him to go up by a point or something, they might do that, but probably not. Whenever they've changed the number of battlegroup points a caster has, it seems very random. In every single case other than Zaal1, though, said solo/attachment/unit is on the table with said Warnoun at the beginning of the game instead of having to kill off a solo (which may or may not be there) in order to exist. If I run Zaal1 in a Masters of War list, that Kovaas is literally useless for anything other than a objective marker.
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zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
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Post by zich on Sept 20, 2018 18:40:28 GMT
I don't buy the "but that caster comes with X" argument. Kovaas summoning is part of Zaal's kit. It's not more powerful than the things other casters do. Building lists with the guy is awkward and I want it to be less so. It doesn't matter whether or not you "buy it". Casters that come with solos, units, attachments and or special stuff outside their own model usually have less points associated with them. That's the way it is. If you can find a good reason for him to go up by a point or something, they might do that, but probably not. Whenever they've changed the number of battlegroup points a caster has, it seems very random. Yes, that's the way it is. It's bad. And these ways can change.
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boozy
Junior Strategist
Posts: 429
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Post by boozy on Sept 20, 2018 19:36:49 GMT
Charistoph is correct in that Zaal1 is effectively playing with a hand tied behind his back outside of Exalted. Granted, he can go out of theme, but it's pretty clear that the designers are attempting to balance around themes, and competitive play is expected to occur within. Considering Iona, they are also currently still very comfortable designing a warlock/warcaster to work exclusively within a certain theme.
The deeper structural problems with Immortals are real, but are unlikely to be addressed in my opinion. PP clearly likes the concept of layered functionality for them, and honestly, they aren't trash. I used to play them before the UA, and they are significantly better for that addition.
As a minimum look in the upcoming CID, i'd like to have AGs in at least MoW. It matches the lore, provides some resource recycling on our models, and makes Zaal1 viable in theme, and Zaal2 even better. If the Supreme Guardian is also present as promised, even better.
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Sept 20, 2018 19:53:51 GMT
I'm honestly more hopeful for changes to our beasts. I would worry about how "not good" our AGs are, but since they are free... Immortals seem to do pretty well as long as you can keep them fed with souls, unless you need to crack armor. They could probably make it easier to determine who collects our souls. Like the UAs automatically get priority unless full or something, after which it is by normal proximity, just to make game play easier.
So all we have left is beasts and casters to address, apart from the new models we are getting, which I believe is like... 2 at this point? Mordikaar needs work and possibly Makeda3 (though it's debatable whether she will be included).
So given all that and especially the crazy upgrades Circle got, I could see our stable getting some tuning. The Titans and Aradus should probably get cheaper, Reptile Hounds are awful, and the Cyclops Raider could should probably have Reload or something. Mammoth obviously needs help getting over walls and probably better means of contributing since he's so difficult to ever get into melee.
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Post by Charistoph on Sept 20, 2018 19:55:46 GMT
That could actually be Zaal1's Elite Cadre rule, though. It doesn't do anything else for the Guardian but allow them to be taken in Themes they're not normally allowed. It would be no different then the Bonds that Character Warbeasts get. If you want that something extra... He gives Ancestral Guardians Weaponmaster (specifically to avoid the issue with the Supreme having it). I've asked, in person, about this a year ago with Pagani. At the time he said it was a flat no, that it would never happen. Those sort of decisions change over time, but it's a drum I'd stop banging. It's not even one I'm going to start banging. I need to start CID in order for me to even be considered part of the band, much less being the lead drummer. And I need more play time and models before I would consider being part of CID.
However, it may bug an idea in someone else's bonnet who is in the band to get their own beats in to play, or it may lead to something being effectual down the road.
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boozy
Junior Strategist
Posts: 429
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Post by boozy on Sept 20, 2018 20:13:52 GMT
Circle got a back-handed review of living warbeasts because it was DH under CID. I suppose that it's possible the same could happen because Exalted is going under the microscope, but frankly I doubt it. It seems outside of scope.
As for warlocks, I'd be willing to wager Mordikaar is in, Makeda3 out. Unless of course she undergoes a complete makeover and becomes an Exalted centric warlock, not an impossible, considering her title and escort. I'd be very eager too see that incarnation, if it did happen.
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Post by coolguyclay on Sept 20, 2018 20:33:28 GMT
...Makeda3 out. Unless of course she undergoes a complete makeover and becomes an Exalted centric warlock, not an impossible, considering her title and escort. I'd be very eager too see that incarnation, if it did happen. That is a great point, she has Immortal-like escorts! Definitely could see her as part of Exalted review. As the leader of Skorne's armies, with the statues, it gives a nice bridge to include AG's or Hakaar in MoW theme. If AG's are worth taking that is. . . still might suggest "Flank: FF Warrior" for AG's. I also like solid SP5 for all Exalted (AGs, SG, Immortals, Hakaar) and dropping Resonance on AG. Just easier to deal with.
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zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
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Post by zich on Sept 20, 2018 20:36:29 GMT
Every Hordes faction had a beast review. Circle even had 2 by now. I'm sure it's not too weird to expect something similar.
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granor
Junior Strategist
Posts: 353
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Post by granor on Sept 20, 2018 20:38:37 GMT
The heavy warbeasts at a minimum need to be in the CID. I doubt the lights will be in there but they also need work. I would expect the scarab pack to be in the CID before reptile hounds.
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boozy
Junior Strategist
Posts: 429
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Post by boozy on Sept 20, 2018 21:16:27 GMT
The heavy warbeasts at a minimum need to be in the CID. I doubt the lights will be in there but they also need work. I would expect the scarab pack to be in the CID before reptile hounds. The is an derp turtle in the closet when discussing our elephants and other warbeasts. Do we need to have our warbeasts looked at to justify them over the turtles? Or if you accept that logic, do instead they need revision? If you accept the premise of either position, then I fear it will become a huge Pandora's Box to open up. I don't have any deep grievances with our stable. The Reptile Hounds are a notable sore spot, true. I haven't put my Sentinels on the table since the glorious days of MKII with Croaks. Molik Karn is an imposter without Fate Walker, and stays on my shelf. Other small dissappointments to be sure, but on the whole I think we are in a solid place.
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zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
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Post by zich on Sept 20, 2018 21:23:12 GMT
I can answer that one: Both. Turtle down, heavies up. Way, way up. It's kind of an issue that they still have the reputation of hitting really hard and tanking really well, when they kinda do neither anymore. I hope that can be overcome.
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skormedlover87
Junior Strategist
Desperately searching for days off to game...
Posts: 517
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Post by skormedlover87 on Sept 20, 2018 22:04:02 GMT
Every CiD that's not particularly small and focused has included Jack's or beasts as part of it. It's also included usually 2 but sometimes more casters. I think it's safe to say we'll be seeing 1) the new solos obviously 2) at least a couple casters up for review 3) at least 1 beast chasis 4) 1 of the Gargantuans 5) Immortals and AG's and Hakaar (as part of the CiD, but it remains to be seen if they'll be open to any changes regarding them) 6) the theme structure itself 7) possibly) the Supreme Guardian. It's first CiD may have been temporary rules just to get it sold with more fine tuning coming, since they obviously wanted it to impact sales sooner rather than later
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granor
Junior Strategist
Posts: 353
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Post by granor on Sept 20, 2018 22:32:29 GMT
The heavy warbeasts at a minimum need to be in the CID. I doubt the lights will be in there but they also need work. I would expect the scarab pack to be in the CID before reptile hounds. The is an derp turtle in the closet when discussing our elephants and other warbeasts. Do we need to have our warbeasts looked at to justify them over the turtles? Or if you accept that logic, do instead they need revision? If you accept the premise of either position, then I fear it will become a huge Pandora's Box to open up. I believed PP when they said the turtle was not in the nerf danger zone. I do not think their minds have been changed. I could be wrong of course.
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boozy
Junior Strategist
Posts: 429
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Post by boozy on Sept 20, 2018 22:40:57 GMT
Didn't know PP gave it an explicit pardon from the nerf bat. Good to know.
My guess is we'll have all models with soul collector rules and exalted in the CID, plus Mordikaar, Despoiler, and Void Spirits. That includes of course any new releases with those rules.
If warbeasts in general make it in, then I suspect it will be our Gargantuans, namely because PP wants people buying and playing them, something that isn't currently happening in Skorne.
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boozy
Junior Strategist
Posts: 429
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Post by boozy on Sept 20, 2018 22:44:47 GMT
Edited for double post.
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