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Post by Netherby on Jul 24, 2018 16:03:49 GMT
Flank is stupidly good. It doesn't have to be your whole list, but at least part of it should be aimed at being able to use it... That means you need something other than S3 and two Forge Seers in your list! S3 is all about MoW + 'jack combined arms. If you want to play just MoWs then there is V2, I2, etc. If you want to play just 'jacks then there is... Well OW2 I guess... If you want to play just 'jacks wait for S0 You can take 60pts of MoW with S3 no problem, just means you have to take cheap 'jacks. Pathfinder is an issue, which is why I think 40pts of MoW is better so you can afford to take Kodiaks.
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Post by sand20go on Jul 24, 2018 16:52:31 GMT
Flank is stupidly good. It doesn't have to be your whole list, but at least part of it should be aimed at being able to use it... That means you need something other than S3 and two Forge Seers in your list! S3 is all about MoW + 'jack combined arms. If you want to play just MoWs then there is V2, I2, etc. If you want to play just 'jacks then there is... Well OW2 I guess... If you want to play just 'jacks wait for S0 You can take 60pts of MoW with S3 no problem, just means you have to take cheap 'jacks. Pathfinder is an issue, which is why I think 40pts of MoW is better so you can afford to take Kodiaks. flank is GLORIOUS WHEN IT WORKS. I surprised a bunch of relatively inexperienced players - including when Beast09 removed a Drakodile with focus to spare But the games that got me off of her where first Madrak2 Double Champs in Northkin into a long time player but new to trolls. Losing Winterwrath's effectiveness made me very sad. Ditto lots of medium bases that really didn't care how hard I hit cause I was still killing just one model. Even with good placement of the jack and the man of war it still was sorta overkill. Then, clumped up, Lots of things died on the counterfeat and madrak himself. Then I lost to Haley2 (or perhaps Locke and Vulcan...can't remember who Juris was running) who simply prioritized the stuff that could trigger flank. I was left with Jacks that simply could not get it done. With the huge bases immune to stationary the DC couldn't add their punch to the table. Perhaps what this says more than anything is that S3 has some bad matchups. She doesn't want to see Northkin cause Shatter and Stationary are an important part of how she provides Crowd control (and helps the DC). She doesn't want to see high value shooting because that can start to remove flank trigger and flanking jacks at Range. But if she DOESN"T see that then she can start to get some work done
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chuggyg
Junior Strategist
Posts: 474
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Post by chuggyg on Jul 24, 2018 17:12:55 GMT
Can you at least give us a list? conflictchamber.com/#c3201b_-0xk_kVkZ9vhFhFe3kX8r8y8686868c8eKhador Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Jaws of the Wolf [Sorscha 3] Kommandant Sorscha Kratikoff [+28] - Beast 09 [18] - Rager [10] - Sylys Wyshnalyrr, the Seeker [4] Greylord Forge Seer [0(4)] Greylord Forge Seer [4] Kovnik Andrei Malakov [4] - Conquest [35] Widowmaker Marksman [4] Yuri the Axe [0(6)] Battle Mechaniks (min) [3] Battle Mechaniks (min) [3] Battle Mechaniks (min) [3] Kossite Woodsmen (min) [7] Widowmaker Scouts [8] Flank is a minor part of her kit, in my opinion. She also trends towards a defensive game, having her kit largely tooled to control (counter-charge, cloud wall, stationary, etc), that the low speed on forge seers isn't the end of the world for using them to trigger it, since your opponent will often be coming to you. With Beast on the table you can play them farther forward than you normally would, using the threat of shield guard + hyper aggressive to deter shooting. Armor cracking is handled by that Redlined Conquest, the rest of the list is about setting up strong interior lines and picking your engagements. The biggest advantages she has in her kit, and the things I think a Sorscha3 list should be built around, are Stoke the Fires and Winter's Wrath. Winter's wrath costs 3 and usually requires a follow-up wind rush, so you need to minimize focus investment elsewhere, which considerably lowers the value of hotswapping Iron Flesh (or having to pay to upkeep it!). Stoke is a straight speed buff that stacks with Malakov's Redline and Beast's Hyper-Aggressive. Counter-charge + Freezer from a Forge Seer makes for a nasty trap via Beast09. Jaws also makes far, far better use out of Storm's Embrace than Armored Corps, as your def 12/13/14 stuff getting a +2 defense is considerably more useful than def 10 going to 12. If the other guy is relying on blast damage instead of accurate hitting, tossing Iron Flesh on those Widowmakers is a great idea, otherwise I just leave it on Sorscha all game and play her forward. I've been considering dropping the Rager for a Jugg, as I've found that going into big battlegroups has been a tough matchup, but I've been getting a lot of use out of the extra shield guard and the gun.
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chuggyg
Junior Strategist
Posts: 474
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Post by chuggyg on Jul 24, 2018 17:13:45 GMT
flank is GLORIOUS WHEN IT WORKS. I surprised a bunch of relatively inexperienced players - including when Beast09 removed a Drakodile with focus to spare This pretty much capture my feelings about flank perfectly. Specifically the 'when it works' and 'inexperienced players' parts!
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Post by Netherby on Jul 25, 2018 7:04:23 GMT
I dunno what lists you've been running, but it SHOULD be pretty hard to remove all the flank triggers...
I felt early on that running Demos with her was actually a bit overrated. You really don't want your core damage output to be tied to making something stationary. Shocks and Drakhuns are way better for applying flank. Tankers are also pretty good.
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Sorcha 3
Jul 25, 2018 7:16:15 GMT
via mobile
Post by welshhoppo on Jul 25, 2018 7:16:15 GMT
Drakhuns have an engaging threat of 16. What aren't they triggering flank on?
I assume kodiaks are still the Jack of choice?
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Sorcha 3
Jul 25, 2018 8:51:33 GMT
via mobile
Post by Soul Samurai on Jul 25, 2018 8:51:33 GMT
I assume kodiaks are still the Jack of choice? I feel like she wants Reach jacks? First so you can counter-charge non-reach models without them being able to swing back, and second so if you opponent sends a heavy into your Shocktrooper wall you can counter-charge in and swing over their heads; although this may require the opponent to position closer than they need to? I feel like they would need to get that close if they want to engage at least three of your MOW with 1" range; otherwise they can probably stay out of your melee range? I haven't really explored this.
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Post by Netherby on Jul 25, 2018 9:38:36 GMT
Well, everyone want's Reach jacks. The problem is we don't actually get them. There is Beast09 and Spriggan. Now the Spriggan might be okay, but you never really want to take more than one. They are also both very expensive.
Kodaiks are the preimum choice because Pathfinder (which you lack otherwise) and Chain Attack. But Marauder is obviously good for huge base killing and Berserker is very nice for its low cost.
I'm not sure about Beast09, but it's quite a good counter charger and shield guard + hyper aggressive is a thing that if you're skilled you can make use of.
You can't really counter charge stuff from behind medium bases unless they go right in, but you can leave gaps (the gaps don't even have to be enough to fit a large base between). You can also position so that it's very hard to avoid a counter charge if they want to get more than 1 model.
Drakhun can usually stay pretty safe while still being in run range to provide flank. That's really the reason to have them, 16" flank enabler is really hard to deal with.
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Post by skathrex on Jul 25, 2018 9:58:59 GMT
So, lets share some experience: I started with a list very similar to that one: conflictchamber.com/#c3201b_-0Tk_7s7s7s9vl5l4l4l2l7l17QgdjJKhador Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Armored Corps [Sorscha 3] Kommandant Sorscha Kratikoff [+28] - Kodiak [13] - Kodiak [13] - Kodiak [13] - Sylys Wyshnalyrr, the Seeker [4] Man-O-War Kovnik [0(4)] Man-O-War Strike Tanker [0(5)] Man-O-War Strike Tanker [5] Kommandant Atanas Arconovich & Standard [7] Man-O-War Demolition Corps (max) [14] - Sergeant Dragos Dragadovich [0(6)] Man-O-War Shocktroopers (max) [16] - Man-O-War Shocktrooper Officer [4] Man-O-War Assault Chariot [14] But I had around 50 pts of Mow. Difference was a Rager instead of the Chariot. My finding was that I don't like the instable chassis since setting up flank and getting the jack there often required some investment. Often times the Jacks needed to charge or get Stokes, which needs some further investment. On top of that, the instable jacks often can't finish their target (if its a jack) without additional Focus, which would lead to them exploding. In summary, it isn't worth it to try to setup flank for cheaper jacks. However I am quite pleased with Kodiaks. The native passfinder and clouds help a ton. Only other jacks I would consider atm are Marauder and Devestator. Maybe a Spriggan for the reach, but the later one is to expensive in this tight list. There is the possibility for a 4th Jack and going below 60 Points MoW, which additionally gives you room for a different merc solos and most importantly Eliminators to contest but its hard to cut something since I would want to still include some tankers. The thing I am worried about here is not having enough, or flexible enough MoW to trigger flank reliably. Another finding I had was that Winters Wrath is something I rarely cast. If the opponent comes into my lines its often easier to just hit the jack or beast once with Sorscha and Windrush back. If the opponent is to far out its hard to get them with the nuke or its simply to expensive when you also want to fuel your jacks/shoot some solos. Thats why I am currently conemplating cutting Sylys from the list. I really like her feat, because it gives the MoW the additional time to set up. Often if I go second I have to feat turn one, but normaly that puts me into positions where I can threaten all the zones turn 2. So far the list has game into grymkin, PT and Trolls from my experience, but needs more testing. Oh yes, nearly forgot. Counteracharge is something thats really hard to trigger since many opponents can jam or have 2 inch range and the setup with Jacks and MoW is not easy.
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Post by thematsjo on Jul 25, 2018 21:04:56 GMT
How are you guys feeling about her tho? I really like more of an infantry list with Sorscha to exploit her Demo Corps (ideally with Retaliatory Strike) synergy. You can swap some things around for a set of Kodiaks (for Pathfinder) or get some Strike Tankers if you're up against a lot of armor but the goal is to really try to invest in Flank. Just play it as a melee attrition list and you should be fine. conflictchamber.com/#c3201b_-0Tk_kVkRkRkRhF8pl5l3l386l2l7l17QgdKhador Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Armored Corps [Sorscha 3] Kommandant Sorscha Kratikoff [+28] - Beast 09 [18] - Berserker [8] - Berserker [8] - Berserker [8] Greylord Forge Seer [4] Man-O-War Drakhun [9] Man-O-War Kovnik [4] Man-O-War Suppression Tanker [0(6)] Man-O-War Suppression Tanker [0(6)] Battle Mechaniks (min) [3] Kommandant Atanas Arconovich & Standard [7] Man-O-War Demolition Corps (max) [14] - Sergeant Dragos Dragadovich [0(6)] Man-O-War Shocktroopers (max) [16] - Man-O-War Shocktrooper Officer [4]
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Post by mcdermott on Jul 26, 2018 2:07:02 GMT
I dunno what lists you've been running, but it SHOULD be pretty hard to remove all the flank triggers... I felt early on that running Demos with her was actually a bit overrated. You really don't want your core damage output to be tied to making something stationary. Shocks and Drakhuns are way better for applying flank. Tankers are also pretty good. I love the shocks. The thing about shock troopers that makes me insanely happy is how 1 or 2 bad, or even just below expected damage rolls can completely monkeywrench a turns worth of plans due to their toughness.
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Post by sand20go on Jul 26, 2018 2:32:00 GMT
I dunno what lists you've been running, but it SHOULD be pretty hard to remove all the flank triggers... I felt early on that running Demos with her was actually a bit overrated. You really don't want your core damage output to be tied to making something stationary. Shocks and Drakhuns are way better for applying flank. Tankers are also pretty good. I love the shocks. The thing about shock troopers that makes me insanely happy is how 1 or 2 bad, or even just below expected damage rolls can completely monkeywrench a turns worth of plans due to their toughness. Shieldwalled Shocks are precisely the kind of model that HATES the hurricane with a Passion ;=-(
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Post by mcdermott on Jul 26, 2018 5:31:25 GMT
Triangle up when facing a hurricane. 2 wide faced triangles stops most slam shenanigans.
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Post by Netherby on Jul 26, 2018 6:35:00 GMT
Doesn't the CA make them completely ignore the Hurricane though?
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Post by sand20go on Jul 26, 2018 13:29:08 GMT
Triangle up when facing a hurricane. 2 wide faced triangles stops most slam shenanigans. ? Except a PERFECTLY 90 degree angle (essentially humanly impossible and that is a VERY obliging Swan to DO that) will mean that a slammed shocktrooper will go off and hit at least one if not usually 2 of his compatriots. POW 16 + 3 dice (extra dice collateral) means an average of 5 damage on the guy he hits and 2-3 points chip damage on compatriots. Haley can make the thing shoot 3 times. VERY easy for the Hurricane to shoot down a big chuck of your unit. TK is also a problem in the Haley2 match up with AC because he can twirl your tankers around and now they are ARM 17 cause sheild doesn't apply to back arcs. It is a BAD match up. Perhaps Juris would like to chime in but it definately isn't much fun and why I move from S3 to V2 with a huge base (No TK; No domination; Windblast can help some with shooting; Super serum can be used both defensively and offensively; Victor to light support on Fire)
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