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Post by onijet01 on Jun 29, 2018 16:52:35 GMT
Care to elaborate? I'm pretty sure I won't be playing against them any time soon if at all. Redline for +2 Strength and Spd, Vulcan uses it's rusty aura and runs 16", she then casts Jackhammer for P&S 23 attacks against your warjacks Sorry gonna be "that person" few holes in your plan and explination. Unboostable melee attack on a mat 6 colossal. The model being 16 inches away is well outside of effective control for locke. Rust aura can weaken our armor but we have ways to get around. Jackhammer is a range 6 spell that if cast through the unstable arcnode warjack has a 1/3 change to blow its own arc node. It is such a scary combo that if you let a 120mm base get a landing spot to have the opponent pull this off y ou u deserve to lose a warjack. Ofcourse with us running 3 ish average warjacks and support we would kill it in the following turn so yah lets see opponents throw a 35 to 45 point kit to take iut a heavy maybe 2
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Juris
Junior Strategist
Posts: 578
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Post by Juris on Jun 29, 2018 17:06:38 GMT
Care to elaborate? I'm pretty sure I won't be playing against them any time soon if at all. Redline for +2 Strength and Spd, Vulcan uses it's rusty aura and runs 16", she then casts Jackhammer for P&S 23 attacks against your warjacks That's a big part of it, but not the complete picture. The Vulcan can easily be MAT7 during Jackhammers thanks to Propsero's veteran leader, and you can often reduce the def of the important target with Ice Cages from the Combat Alchemists and/or a Suppressor's sprays. Perhaps the best way to explain the strength is with some anecdotes from games I've played so far: 1) Yesterday I played a game against Elara2 with a Helios and 2 units of Dawnguard Sentinels (amongst other things). On bottom of 2, I walked my Redline'd Vulcan less than his max 8" to within 2 inches of his Def12/ARM19/64 box Helios, used Iron Bane, and proceeded to shoot and spray about 9 or 10 mini-feated and base to base Sentinels; I killed 8 or so and left 2 more corroded; no melee attacks with the Vulcan during its activation. Locke then walked up to within 6" of the Vulcan and cast 7 Jackhammers on the Vulcan, who needed 5's to hit Helios at dice plus 4, choosing column; I missed one attack and killed Helios on the 7th Jackhammer, and camped one. 2) I played a game against OW2, where OW was around 16" away from Vulcan, around a house, and with 2 heavies in the run path. I upkept Redline on the Vulcan for free. It activated, used Iron Bane and ran into melee with OW, easily bulldozing the two Jacks out of the way. Prospero ran up to within 8". My Suppressor trampled forward 8" then sprayed OW with two ice cages, reducing her DEF to 8. Locke then walked up to within 6" of the Vulcan and started casting Jackhammers at not ones to hit and Dice plus 4; I could cast up to 8, but OW died long before then. 3) I played a game against Bradigus. He had 2 Wold Watchers in between my Vulcan and his heavies, each with Animus and Stone Form up. I crit dispelled the animus off of one using Combat Alchemist's Blood of Urcaen shots (could also have used Prospero's jack if it was still alive), then charged my Redlined' three focus Vulcan at the heavy, bulldozing the Wold Watcher out of the way (and still in my melee), then killed the heavy and another Wold Watcher. Locke then Jackhammered the Vulcan to finish the second Wold Watcher, and swapped Redline to a Vindicator. 4) I played a game against Strakhov2 in Armored Korps. Bottom of 1, I feated with Locke to remove Quicken from a Viktor and Inviolable from a unit of Shock Troopers, then walked my Vulcan up 8" and sprayed/shot down 5 Shocktroopers (they ran turn one instead of shield wall, relying on Inviolable Resolve to live, I guess). Conclusion. It is very strong. The combo (Locke & Vulcan + Prospero & Suppressor) kills infantry and hard targets in equal measure, often in the same turn (as illustrated by example #1). It threats incredibly far, with the ability to manipulate/remove intervening models. It can turn off healing for living models. It can reduce your defense with Ice Cages. It can control your infantry with Ice Cages (3 of them make you Stationary). It can even remove your immunity with the Vulcan so that it can make you Stationary with Ice Cages. It's very good.
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Juris
Junior Strategist
Posts: 578
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Post by Juris on Jun 29, 2018 17:15:20 GMT
Redline for +2 Strength and Spd, Vulcan uses it's rusty aura and runs 16", she then casts Jackhammer for P&S 23 attacks against your warjacks Sorry gonna be "that person" few holes in your plan and explination. Unboostable melee attack on a mat 6 colossal. The model being 16 inches away is well outside of effective control for locke. Rust aura can weaken our armor but we have ways to get around. Jackhammer is a range 6 spell that if cast through the unstable arcnode warjack has a 1/3 change to blow its own arc node. It is such a scary combo that if you let a 120mm base get a landing spot to have the opponent pull this off y ou u deserve to lose a warjack. Ofcourse with us running 3 ish average warjacks and support we would kill it in the following turn so yah lets see opponents throw a 35 to 45 point kit to take iut a heavy maybe 2 You have a fundamental misunderstanding of the geometries involved, which is fine because you've never played against it. Read my explanation above, and if you still have questions I'm happy to explain further. I'll address a few bullets here anyway: - The Vulcan will be effective MAT7 or higher when getting Jackhammered. -With Bulldoze, it's really hard to effectively body block. -I don't know what "ways" you have to get around minus 2 armor from Rust/Iron Bane? In any event, against Constructs, the Vulcan will be effective P&S23, and Locke can remove your upkeeps with her feat (or a melee attack from Prospero's warjack, or possibly from crit dispel shots from Combat Alchemists). -If the Vulcan runs 16", the back of it's base is only 11.1" away from where it started. Locke is speed 5 with a 14" control; it's not hard to keep it in Locke's control (if that mattered for some reason). Moreover, if the target that you wish to Jackhammer is within about 16.9" of Locke's starting position, she can probably just walk and directly cast Jackhammer onto the Vulcan without needing an Arc Node. If the target is within 18.9", she can cast Engine of Destruction and still walk to directly cast Jackhammer, leaving her with up to 6 remaining focus for Jackhammers. -The Vulcan will easily kill 2 Khadoran heavies from Jackhammers alone. He can reliably cripple even more. With Bulldoze, you'd be surprised how many he can get in melee at once. The math is Dice + 3 against ARM20. 4 swings overkill a Juggernaut; he can make up to 8 from Jackhammers. It takes 12 damage to column 4 to cripple cortex on a Khadoran heavy; because the Vulcan chooses column, it takes 2 swings to reliably take out cortex on a Juggernaut; Vulcan could reliably cripple cortex on up to 4 Khadoran Heavies.
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Post by hocestbellum on Jun 29, 2018 17:31:24 GMT
Ooh, grim. Doesn't even need the feat to do it. The ARM22 if she does use a feat would make it pretty monstrous to deal with, too.
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Ganso
Junior Strategist
Posts: 932
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Post by Ganso on Jun 29, 2018 17:32:40 GMT
... whole bunch of nasty stuff... Damn that's nasty. Do you have a full list you can share?
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Juris
Junior Strategist
Posts: 578
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Post by Juris on Jun 29, 2018 17:36:46 GMT
... whole bunch of nasty stuff... Damn that's nasty. Do you have a full list you can share? This is the list I'm playing at the moment: THEME: Prima Materia Aurum Lucanum Athanor Locke - WJ: +29 - Aurum Ominus Alyce Marc - PC: 0 - Aurum Ominus Alyce Marc (Big Alyce) - Vulcan - PC: 35 (Battlegroup Points Used: 29) - Vindicator - PC: 15 - Vindicator - PC: 15 - Liberator - PC: 10 - Vanguard - PC: 10 Prospero - PC: 0 - Suppressor - PC: 13 Combat Alchemists - Leader & 2 Grunts: 0 Dragon's Breath Rocket - Gunner & 2 Grunts: 5 It is pretty brutal, and as soon as you start seeing these models in tournaments you're going to want an answer. I don't have one for you. Brainstorm time?
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Post by jonnyboy on Jun 29, 2018 17:38:00 GMT
Sorry gonna be "that person" few holes in your plan and explination. Unboostable melee attack on a mat 6 colossal. The model being 16 inches away is well outside of effective control for locke. Rust aura can weaken our armor but we have ways to get around. Jackhammer is a range 6 spell that if cast through the unstable arcnode warjack has a 1/3 change to blow its own arc node. It is such a scary combo that if you let a 120mm base get a landing spot to have the opponent pull this off y ou u deserve to lose a warjack. Ofcourse with us running 3 ish average warjacks and support we would kill it in the following turn so yah lets see opponents throw a 35 to 45 point kit to take iut a heavy maybe 2 You have a fundamental misunderstanding of the geometries involved, which is fine because you've never played against it. Read my explanation above, and if you still have questions I'm happy to explain further. I'll address a few bullets here anyway: - The Vulcan will be effective MAT7 or higher when getting Jackhammered. -With Bulldoze, it's really hard to effectively body block. -I don't know what "ways" you have to get around minus 2 armor from Rust/Iron Bane? In any event, against Constructs, the Vulcan will be effective P&S23, and Locke can remove your upkeeps with her feat (or a melee attack from Prospero's warjack, or possibly from crit dispel shots from Combat Alchemists). -If the Vulcan runs 16", the back of it's base is only 11.1" away from where it started. Locke is speed 5 with a 14" control; it's not hard to keep it in Locke's control (if that mattered for some reason). Moreover, if the target that you wish to Jackhammer is within about 16.9" of Locke's starting position, she can probably just walk and directly cast Jackhammer onto the Vulcan without needing an Arc Node. If the target is within 18.9", she can cast Engine of Destruction and still walk to directly cast Jackhammer, leaving her with up to 6 remaining focus for Jackhammers. -The Vulcan will easily kill 2 Khadoran heavies from Jackhammers alone. He can reliably cripple even more. With Bulldoze, you'd be surprised how many he can get in melee at once. The math is Dice + 3 against ARM20. 4 swings overkill a Juggernaut; he can make up to 8 from Jackhammers. It takes 12 damage to column 4 to cripple cortex on a Khadoran heavy; because the Vulcan chooses column, it takes 2 swings to reliably take out cortex on a Juggernaut; Vulcan could reliably cripple cortex on up to 4 Khadoran Heavies. So even if lock is B2B with vulcan, he moves 16", his base moved at equal parts. No part of his base is closer to it's original position than any other. Unless you are measuring back of base (front of base) to front of base (previous location). Which sounds like locke needs to be pretty far up, if she's behind him not sure 12" is close enough. Are you leaving locke at the front of your colossals base? Otherwise this sounds pretty ridiculous, seeing as you also have the rest of your army. Id say butcher3 is an easy answer. Lock is 6" from the colossal. I think that's right where he wants her.
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Ganso
Junior Strategist
Posts: 932
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Post by Ganso on Jun 29, 2018 17:41:50 GMT
Damn that's nasty. Do you have a full list you can share? This is the list I'm playing at the moment: THEME: Prima Materia Aurum Lucanum Athanor Locke - WJ: +29 - Aurum Ominus Alyce Marc - PC: 0 - Aurum Ominus Alyce Marc (Big Alyce) - Vulcan - PC: 35 (Battlegroup Points Used: 29) - Vindicator - PC: 15 - Vindicator - PC: 15 - Liberator - PC: 10 - Vanguard - PC: 10 Prospero - PC: 0 - Suppressor - PC: 13 Combat Alchemists - Leader & 2 Grunts: 0 Dragon's Breath Rocket - Gunner & 2 Grunts: 5 It is pretty brutal, and as soon as you start seeing these models in tournaments you're going to want an answer. I don't have one for you. Brainstorm time? Thanks man. Right now I'm of the mindset that believes the game has reached a Critical Mass of models where you can't reasonably expect to cover everything with list building, so solutions will have to come from tactics and execution. So I'm going to focus more on the lists I want to play, how I can play them against this, and less on looking for silver bullets. Of course, I don't have anything resembling proper practice time, but it is what it is
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Juris
Junior Strategist
Posts: 578
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Post by Juris on Jun 29, 2018 18:01:39 GMT
This is the list I'm playing at the moment: THEME: Prima Materia Aurum Lucanum Athanor Locke - WJ: +29 - Aurum Ominus Alyce Marc - PC: 0 - Aurum Ominus Alyce Marc (Big Alyce) - Vulcan - PC: 35 (Battlegroup Points Used: 29) - Vindicator - PC: 15 - Vindicator - PC: 15 - Liberator - PC: 10 - Vanguard - PC: 10 Prospero - PC: 0 - Suppressor - PC: 13 Combat Alchemists - Leader & 2 Grunts: 0 Dragon's Breath Rocket - Gunner & 2 Grunts: 5 It is pretty brutal, and as soon as you start seeing these models in tournaments you're going to want an answer. I don't have one for you. Brainstorm time? Thanks man. Right now I'm of the mindset that believes the game has reached a Critical Mass of models where you can't reasonably expect to cover everything with list building, so solutions will have to come from tactics and execution. So I'm going to focus more on the list I want to play and how I can play them agains this, and less on looking for silver bullets. Of course, I don't have anything resembling proper practice time, but it is what it is That's not a bad approach Ganso. Part 1 is understanding the threat. Part 2 is formulating a response. That response could be in modifying your list pair, or just in modifying your tactics for the game. Locke + Vulcan presents a new and powerful threat. I'm just trying to help you recognize and understand it; I'm not Khadoran enough to truly help you fight it. =P That said, what is your list pair right now? OW2 in Jaws and what else? I highly recommend not playing OW2 into Locke.
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Post by hocestbellum on Jun 29, 2018 18:03:52 GMT
This is going to be one of those ones that can't be dojo'd, I think. Too many little cogs.
At first glance, though; Armoured Corps. There's only that lone Dragon's Breath rocket to lower ARM. The Suppressor and Vindicator can't really do a lot to high-ARM troops, and the Alchemists are RNG6. The freezing would be annoying, but they've got to get close.
I might be way off base. It's really hard to picture it all in my head; all the support seems to need to be close, and how do you account for an arc node that might only work twice?
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Post by onijet01 on Jun 29, 2018 18:41:32 GMT
Game on forum
So a few points that seem to be missed in the "x faction is broken"
So first lear khador befor you cry.
Models immune to bulldoze effect Man o war shocktroopers Demolisher Devistator
Warjack immune to corosive Torch
Caster with invioble resolve (yes we have one though he is so-so) Strokov 2
Issues i have with those posti g a mat 7. How is jackhammering at a 7 when it simply forces a mat 6 warjack to make a basic melee attack. Casters focus stat does not matter for jack hammer.
Caster can not jackhammer 7 times in a turn and still have focus.
So who is making crap up again?
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Juris
Junior Strategist
Posts: 578
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Post by Juris on Jun 29, 2018 18:43:44 GMT
This is going to be one of those ones that can't be dojo'd, I think. Too many little cogs. At first glance, though; Armoured Corps. There's only that lone Dragon's Breath rocket to lower ARM. The Suppressor and Vindicator can't really do a lot to high-ARM troops, and the Alchemists are RNG6. The freezing would be annoying, but they've got to get close. I might be way off base. It's really hard to picture it all in my head; all the support seems to need to be close, and how do you account for an arc node that might only work twice? I've played with it against Armored Corps once or twice so far. It can kill MoW just fine, between the dispel/purify abilities to remove defensive upkeeps, and good native power on the ranged and melee rolls. I'd need more experience in the MU before deciding where the balance lies. Keep in mind, as well, that Locke can make the single rocket in my list take a free shot during Maintenance with Sentry. As for the control elements, well yes it's pretty good. Suppressor can trample 8" then spray 8", so 16" threat on 2 Ice Cages. If you can directly hit (or drift) a third ice cage from a Combat Alchemist onto a model, it's stationary. The alchemists have AD, so their 12" threat is still something to be worried about. Fortunately, you can kill them with blast damage. If you are facing any Crucible Guard list with Armored Korps, I'd make that a priority, because stationary MoWs are very sad for your army. As for the Arc Node, it's there more for the threat than because I need it. It's also a legit defensive and combat piece. In the MU against Armored Korps it's actually very useful, because it has a 2" reach Chain Weapon that is base POW13. With Redline, that is dice minus 2 against Shocktroopers. Really good for killing one or 2 to start breaking apart Shield Walls. Also really good for finishing them (with Jackhammers). With Ashen Veil, it is DEF15 against living models as well, which is just annoying enough for MAT7 to hit that it presents a problem.
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Juris
Junior Strategist
Posts: 578
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Post by Juris on Jun 29, 2018 18:48:28 GMT
Game on forum So a few points that seem to be missed in the "x faction is broken" So first lear khador befor you cry. Models immune to bulldoze effect Man o war shocktroopers Demolisher Devistator Warjack immune to corosive Torch Caster with invioble resolve (yes we have one though he is so-so) Strokov 2 Issues i have with those posti g a mat 7. How is jackhammering at a 7 when it simply forces a mat 6 warjack to make a basic melee attack. Casters focus stat does not matter for jack hammer. Caster can not jackhammer 7 times in a turn and still have focus. So who is making crap up again? -Prospero has Veteran Leader [Warjack]. While within 8" of Prospero, any and every Crucible Guard Warjack gains +1 to attack rolls. As long as Prospero is within 8" of the Vulcan when he is Jackhammered, he does it at MAT7. Fact. -Aurum Ominus Alyce Marc (little Alyce) has Harmonious Exaltation; when she casts it on Locke, Locke can reduce the cost of a spell by 1. Locke is a 7 focus Warcaster. Jackhammer costs 1 focus. Locke can cast Jackhammer up to 8 times (7 focus plus one for free thanks to Harmonious Exaltation). Or she can cast it 7 times and camp 1 focus. Fact. More questions? I'm not saying that Crucible Guard is broken. I'm saying they are something you will have to deal with in next year's tournament season, and that it will be difficult.
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Ganso
Junior Strategist
Posts: 932
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Post by Ganso on Jun 29, 2018 19:31:33 GMT
Thanks man. Right now I'm of the mindset that believes the game has reached a Critical Mass of models where you can't reasonably expect to cover everything with list building, so solutions will have to come from tactics and execution. So I'm going to focus more on the list I want to play and how I can play them agains this, and less on looking for silver bullets. Of course, I don't have anything resembling proper practice time, but it is what it is That's not a bad approach Ganso. Part 1 is understanding the threat. Part 2 is formulating a response. That response could be in modifying your list pair, or just in modifying your tactics for the game. Locke + Vulcan presents a new and powerful threat. I'm just trying to help you recognize and understand it; I'm not Khadoran enough to truly help you fight it. =P That said, what is your list pair right now? OW2 in Jaws and what else? I highly recommend not playing OW2 into Locke. Honestly I'm trying to concentrate on Irusk_2 in ArmCorp as my "main" to hit some Champions events. So I'm going to try to crack this nut with that list. Although truth be told, I would probably just default to Butcher_3 Jaws for Regular events. I retired my OW_2 list after Kingdom Con had lots of fun, but she's not in ADR anymore and I really want to give the limited format a fair shake
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Post by hocestbellum on Jun 29, 2018 19:56:56 GMT
This is going to be one of those ones that can't be dojo'd, I think. Too many little cogs. At first glance, though; Armoured Corps. There's only that lone Dragon's Breath rocket to lower ARM. The Suppressor and Vindicator can't really do a lot to high-ARM troops, and the Alchemists are RNG6. The freezing would be annoying, but they've got to get close. I might be way off base. It's really hard to picture it all in my head; all the support seems to need to be close, and how do you account for an arc node that might only work twice? I've played with it against Armored Corps once or twice so far. It can kill MoW just fine, between the dispel/purify abilities to remove defensive upkeeps, and good native power on the ranged and melee rolls. I'd need more experience in the MU before deciding where the balance lies. Keep in mind, as well, that Locke can make the single rocket in my list take a free shot during Maintenance with Sentry. As for the control elements, well yes it's pretty good. Suppressor can trample 8" then spray 8", so 16" threat on 2 Ice Cages. If you can directly hit (or drift) a third ice cage from a Combat Alchemist onto a model, it's stationary. The alchemists have AD, so their 12" threat is still something to be worried about. Fortunately, you can kill them with blast damage. If you are facing any Crucible Guard list with Armored Korps, I'd make that a priority, because stationary MoWs are very sad for your army. As for the Arc Node, it's there more for the threat than because I need it. It's also a legit defensive and combat piece. In the MU against Armored Korps it's actually very useful, because it has a 2" reach Chain Weapon that is base POW13. With Redline, that is dice minus 2 against Shocktroopers. Really good for killing one or 2 to start breaking apart Shield Walls. Also really good for finishing them (with Jackhammers). With Ashen Veil, it is DEF15 against living models as well, which is just annoying enough for MAT7 to hit that it presents a problem. Well, the Redlined jack can. Everything else would seriously struggle. Vulcan has the lowest power of a colossal, and 17 on a non-shield or Open Fist weapon is pretty low too. Unless that Dragon rocket hits, you're looking at 2+ hits on average to kill a Shocktrooper. But this is what I meant about being difficult to dojo. You can trample the Suppressors up and spray me, but if I've, say, blown up the Alchemists with my Assault Chariot, you need two Suppressors to freeze anything. You can pop Locke's feat for Dispel, but otherwise you need to send in a Suppressor with its threat range of, what, 9? But doing all this to my Shocktroopers means you're ignoring my Fire For Effect Strike Tanker. Him and his buddy will chunk 20 off of your colossal for 1 focus; you can't leave them around. But if you've popped feat, I don't want to upkeep it if it gives you a Catalytic token. And so on and so on. It just goes back and forth, round and round, and on and on. And that's without even getting into scenario play. Interesting point about the Node, though, I forgot it had Ashen Veil. CG seem to have some very good light jacks.
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