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Post by borderprince on May 29, 2018 7:41:13 GMT
Possibly going to derail the discussion, but the idea came up from the arguments about Shocks not being particularly effective.
Would Sorscha3 benefit from all/almost all of her MoW units being Demo Corps?
They're considerably cheaper, both per model and because only one unit can have a UA who is usually free. They also have the lovely 2" melee range for processing flank. That's a big benefit for both Demo Corps and STs over Bombardiers in the context of Sorscha3.
Probably something like one max unit with Dragos that gets Iron Flesh and all the other support bells and whistles. Then some min units. Given Sorscha only has IF as a unit buff, taking the min units of Demo Corps doesn't seem like a bad idea, especially as they're cheaper per model that way.
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chuggyg
Junior Strategist
Posts: 474
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Post by chuggyg on May 29, 2018 12:17:07 GMT
I'm going to be running the following:
Sorscha3 -Sylys -Beast09 -Rager -Rager MOW Kovnik Suppression Tanker Suppression Tanker Drakhun Drakhun Demo Corps (min) Demo Corps (min) Demo Corps (min) -Dragos Atanas Mechaniks (min) Mechaniks (min)
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Plan is to put IF on Sorscha herself (arm 20 with a 5 swing from power field is pretty dang good) and play her as forward as possible: she gets retaliatory strike from Atanas to stop heavies from coming in and murdering her, and the game plan is she just goes around bopping stuff with her hammer and having the demo corps finish it off. She's vulnerable to knockdown from spells and melee bops, but those aren't super common.
Not 100% sold on sylys: war dog would be the ideal choice but that FOC6 on sorscha really sucks shit.
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Post by sand20go on May 29, 2018 12:55:08 GMT
It is worth testing but I think the problem with Sorscha3 and all demo corp is high powered shooting. Unless your cloud wall lets you get all the way there (and Running 10 inches is STILL awfully slow) ARM 16 just is not that durable. You also are giving up the vengeance attack - which you want to maximize volume in a low volume list. Finally, where does IF go? It feels wasted on a 3 man demo unit or on a Drakhun.
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chuggyg
Junior Strategist
Posts: 474
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Post by chuggyg on May 29, 2018 14:23:35 GMT
In my first line I state it's going on Sorscha herself.
I have several shield guards (one of which who is hyper aggressive!)
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Post by smoothcriminal on May 29, 2018 14:45:39 GMT
Well at some point you need to decide what you are fighting with your list. Like how much shooting will be on opposing side? If it's a few boosted shots from heavies Ragers can shield guard them. If it's a V1 full gunline is S3 your designated drop for it? You can go all in on demos and make S3 the designated heavy spam boogeyman. You can get an arm23 shock with bombers and tankers shooting through them and make S3 the gunline boogeyman. I don't think you can do both. She has very limited focus with which to support her other things, and the Bombardiers are entirely self-sufficient. Shocktroopers require a buttload of support to get working and the support she offers them is better spent elsewhere (such as on herself!) Self sufficiency is the opposite of synergy, though? Also, I disagree with everything in that second sentence. Sorscha only has one buff to give out, and there is no better target for Iron Flesh in Khador than the Shocktroopers. But hey, if you really need to cast Wind Rush, Winter's Wrath, and Stoke the Fires, feel free to drop Iron Flesh. Have the Kovnik give the Demo Corps Desperate Pace and have Atanas give them Relentless Charge. The Shocktroopers will be fine. Shocktroopers require no support whatsoever, but because they are so good as a baseline they get much better when they have buffs. My issue with the Bombardiers is that I'm not sure what they actually do? They don't have the attack volume to deal with numbers, the power to deal with heavies, or the accuracy to deal with lights. The die to P12s, so you can't use them to hold a scenario reliably or do much in melee. If they get a perfect minifeat turn, there's no denying that it's a sight to behold, but if anything goes a bit pear-shaped they're not a lot of use. On the other hand, almost whatever shape things end up in, the Shocktroopers will probably still be useful simply because they have excellent stats. They are more survivable and they hit harder. Hell, they're not even too bad at shooting given that it's a tacked-on extra. Frankly, for the cost and role of the Bombardiers you can get all four Tankers, and I'd argue that they're better at the jobs that need doing. Bomber differ in two important ways from other mows: 1. They have best threat ranges. Aimed 12", unaimed 16-18". Shocks can at best do 12" unaimed and after that they will eat the charge of everything. 2. They can aim getting up to rat 8. With demos/shocks you're stuck on hoping for them crit freezes to hit reliably. Yes, bombers don't crack arm by themselves, but neither do shocks. Pow 14 is enough to kill everything that's not a heavy. Bombers volume of attack problem is less than shocks or demos. They have aoe and they have quick work.
Shocks in fact don't have excellent stats by themselves. Without a damage buff caster you either shieldwall and do exact same damage as bombers, but at lesser mat/rat (no aim), or you charge something and become as brittle as demos, but without proper pucnhing power. They are excellent dedicated tank unit, but my point is that S3 can do without dedicated tank unit. Tankers vs bombers is a good point which I currently can't answer. Btw tankers are also better than shocks for the same cost (don't forget shocks need a kovnik to babysit them). Tankers give you 40 boxes at arm 21, shocks give you 48, but tankers shoot far reducing opponent's model numbers while shocks just sit on their butt.
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Post by hocestbellum on May 29, 2018 15:48:48 GMT
I think we may just have fundamentally different viewpoints here.
Neither crack armour, neither have high attacks, neither are cheap. Neither are particularly accurate or inaccurate. They're both slow.
But I'm a fan of survivability. You'll rarely have a game where you don't get charged or shot at, and in those situations the Shocks are miles ahead. ARM21 is very good, and ARM23 is the point where you really need to be packing P19+ to deal with it. P12 weaponmaster? Dice -11 for you my friend.
I think they play better in the scenario game too. Artillery can't hold ground, and neither can the Bombardiers. If anything charges them, they die.
I'm sure S3 doesn't need a dedicated tanking unit, but given that she makes them amazing, and they are great at triggering the Flank bonus by dint of still being alive in melee, I'm not sure why you'd skip them.
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Post by jonnyboy on May 29, 2018 16:18:02 GMT
I think we may just have fundamentally different viewpoints here. Neither crack armour, neither have high attacks, neither are cheap. Neither are particularly accurate or inaccurate. They're both slow. But I'm a fan of survivability. You'll rarely have a game where you don't get charged or shot at, and in those situations the Shocks are miles ahead. ARM21 is very good, and ARM23 is the point where you really need to be packing P19+ to deal with it. P12 weaponmaster? Dice -11 for you my friend. I think they play better in the scenario game too. Artillery can't hold ground, and neither can the Bombardiers. If anything charges them, they die. I'm sure S3 doesn't need a dedicated tanking unit, but given that she makes them amazing, and they are great at triggering the Flank bonus by dint of still being alive in melee, I'm not sure why you'd skip them. I think the thing bombadiers do best is hold scenario zones! They easily get to the edge of a zone first turn, maybe second turn if you're cautious. Now the enemy has the choice of staying out of scoring, or moving within 12" of bombadiers and losing whatever they put there. 6 POW 16 shots will put work into a heavy and 12 pow 14s will leave nothing left of an infantry unit. Yes things can charge more than 12", but this can be played around. Put the bombers in two rows, i also use kayazy elims as good charge lane blockers. Irusk1 4+ tough is also good at keeping them alive. If you charge the bombers and don't wipe them, quick work is excellent.
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Post by sand20go on May 29, 2018 16:41:36 GMT
I think we may just have fundamentally different viewpoints here. Neither crack armour, neither have high attacks, neither are cheap. Neither are particularly accurate or inaccurate. They're both slow. But I'm a fan of survivability. You'll rarely have a game where you don't get charged or shot at, and in those situations the Shocks are miles ahead. ARM21 is very good, and ARM23 is the point where you really need to be packing P19+ to deal with it. P12 weaponmaster? Dice -11 for you my friend. I think they play better in the scenario game too. Artillery can't hold ground, and neither can the Bombardiers. If anything charges them, they die. I'm sure S3 doesn't need a dedicated tanking unit, but given that she makes them amazing, and they are great at triggering the Flank bonus by dint of still being alive in melee, I'm not sure why you'd skip them. I think the thing bombadiers do best is hold scenario zones! They easily get to the edge of a zone first turn, maybe second turn if you're cautious. Now the enemy has the choice of staying out of scoring, or moving within 12" of bombadiers and losing whatever they put there. 6 POW 16 shots will put work into a heavy and 12 pow 14s will leave nothing left of an infantry unit. Yes things can charge more than 12", but this can be played around. Put the bombers in two rows, i also use kayazy elims as good charge lane blockers. Irusk1 4+ tough is also good at keeping them alive. If you charge the bombers and don't wipe them, quick work is excellent. Until those things are Trenchers that are dug in under Seige2. Or Champions that are packing at least ARM 18 under Madrak2 that WANT you to shoot at them if you can't remove em (Vengenance(3)+Sp1 from the stone+5+3+1 =13....and all your bombers just MELTED) Or Sentinals under Hyleans that are ARM 25 against Shooting (and LOVE it when something spikes because...again....Vengeance) Or Grymkin who after the bombers kill ONE thing say "OK, now everything is stealth. Enjoy those Blast damage 7 stuff." Or Grymkin 2 is who is shieldguarding the shots with dirt cheap Crabbits. Or Convergenance who is shield guarding with dirt CHEAPER shield guards. Or Skorne - who I guess doesn't like the shooting but who is going to spread it around (more shield guards) and allow you go fuel up the Derp so he doesn't have to. Or Cygnar version #2 who laughes at you from behind Haley3's could wall. Or Menoth who is laughing at you from behind AMon's Jack Wall under Passage. Or Denny who just ran Incorp AND Stealthy murder bots at your lines....if she hasn't pulled the BS Denny2 assissination vector from 26 inches away. Oh...and enoy the POW 12s from Hell Mouth as she pulls those bombers into a need pile...or effective POW 14 if she decideds to curse them as well. Look. I am not being "that guy" when I say that you really need to get the stuff on the table. Moreover, if you (are not) khador and dropping hard hitting infantry on the table you got "tools" to help them survive the shooting - or at least exact a heavy cost for shooting it. Yes. Those bombers will MELT doomreavers. Our cross to carry. THey probably also do pretty well under a damage buffer. I could also see their role (min?) in a sorscha3 list as your scapal to deal with some of the pesky support models that will give the demo and Shocks, your anvil and hammer, some problems. But under S3 the bombers just are not that good. Probably great under some other things that will tune their shots up....but not S3.
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Post by smoothcriminal on May 29, 2018 16:54:38 GMT
That's a lot of bad scenarios for bombers. They can be fixed, but I don't want to go in detail because we're not building a bomber gunline here to warrant inclusion of proper shooting support. What matters is that the only way shocks can answer same scenarios is "I..uhh.. tank?".
Having passive tank unit will not win you a game, you need to accomplish things offensively. Bombers have long threat and good hit, demos have good damage, the only use for shocks is protecting those two and if the caster can manage the protection thing then you don't need shocks.
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Post by sand20go on May 29, 2018 17:10:22 GMT
That's a lot of bad scenarios for bombers. They can be fixed, but I don't want to go in detail because we're not building a bomber gunline here to warrant inclusion of proper shooting support. What matters is that the only way shocks can answer same scenarios is "I..uhh.. tank?". Having passive tank unit will not win you a game, you need to accomplish things offensively. Bombers have long threat and good hit, demos have good damage, the only use for shocks is protecting those two and if the caster can manage the protection thing then you don't need shocks. That Tank hits back. Sometimes twice. Hell, live the dream and retailatory strike down a single wound and then Assault the next turn and get 3 attacks in. So far I have lost twice with those "passive" double shocks. Once in Juris who ALWAYS beats me (and arguably He would have clocked if we had properly adjusted the clock for his 6 minute pizza break) and once into a champions list (that was actually somewhat "hit or miss" and mostly me not thinking through a critical scenario clearly where I brain farted that pathfinder isn't always on but just on advances). Now what you DO need is a hammer. The schoks ALONE are not doing it because, as you note, POW 14 is just too pillow fisted for the stuff coming at them. Still in testing to see if Demo Corp, Rager Spam, or Drakhuns are the best hammer here. But ARM 23, 8 boxes, no knockdown tough is a THING. More likely in Double, Just ARM 23 cause I want tough on the non-IF group. Pro Move is to work out how to swap it - getting it over to the other Shocks after they skew toward that side cause hitting ARM 23 is "hard".
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Post by hocestbellum on May 29, 2018 20:06:36 GMT
Now what you DO need is a hammer. The schoks ALONE are not doing it because, as you note, POW 14 is just too pillow fisted for the stuff coming at them. Still in testing to see if Demo Corp, Rager Spam, or Drakhuns are the best hammer here. Just my 2 cents on that; only one of those is actually a hammer. You need your hammer to absolutely flatten the really heavy stuff. A Drakhun is more like a really expensive scalpel. It's only got that one attack, and for all the bells and whistles it has a single P14 weaponmaster does not even threaten most lights. Brilliant Flank enabler, I'd imagine, so it might be worth it just on the power of that. Ragers hit super hard under flank, but you can't give them focus when you really need to, and without focus they will struggle to take down an opposing heavy in one. And frankly, that's what you're looking to do here, isn't it. Buy or Boost gives them a 20% chance to one round an Ironclad, for example. The other issue is that if you're in a situation where you can't give them flank, they are actually worse than your Shocks for offence. Demo Corps are obviously hammers, but if they were jacks we'd say P16 without a damage boost is a bit pillow fisted. Now, you can give them a damage boost by freezing stuff, but what do you do against huge bases? Or if you really need the focus? You're kind of stuck at 16. So, by my reckoning, your best bet for high end damage is jacks with Flank. But I think you need to pick jacks that work well without Flank first, and I really think you'll struggle to do better than the Marauder in that slot. 2 initials, ultra-strong against your huge base weakness, and if you're super short of focus you can just use the Combo Smite. If Flank is up, you charge, and you can slam them into a base of equal size/an obstacle, that's MAT9, P20 + 5d6. I think the Kodiak and Juggernaut would also be very good options. EDIT: Or, to approach it from a different angle, you could take Ragman. He loves having heavy armoured troops around, and MoW love having a damage boost
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Post by sand20go on May 29, 2018 20:46:16 GMT
Now what you DO need is a hammer. The schoks ALONE are not doing it because, as you note, POW 14 is just too pillow fisted for the stuff coming at them. Still in testing to see if Demo Corp, Rager Spam, or Drakhuns are the best hammer here. Just my 2 cents on that; only one of those is actually a hammer. You need your hammer to absolutely flatten the really heavy stuff. A Drakhun is more like a really expensive scalpel. It's only got that one attack, and for all the bells and whistles it has a single P14 weaponmaster does not even threaten most lights. Brilliant Flank enabler, I'd imagine, so it might be worth it just on the power of that. Ragers hit super hard under flank, but you can't give them focus when you really need to, and without focus they will struggle to take down an opposing heavy in one. And frankly, that's what you're looking to do here, isn't it. Buy or Boost gives them a 20% chance to one round an Ironclad, for example. The other issue is that if you're in a situation where you can't give them flank, they are actually worse than your Shocks for offence. Demo Corps are obviously hammers, but if they were jacks we'd say P16 without a damage boost is a bit pillow fisted. Now, you can give them a damage boost by freezing stuff, but what do you do against huge bases? Or if you really need the focus? You're kind of stuck at 16. So, by my reckoning, your best bet for high end damage is jacks with Flank. But I think you need to pick jacks that work well without Flank first, and I really think you'll struggle to do better than the Marauder in that slot. 2 initials, ultra-strong against your huge base weakness, and if you're super short of focus you can just use the Combo Smite. If Flank is up, you charge, and you can slam them into a base of equal size/an obstacle, that's MAT9, P20 + 5d6. I think the Kodiak and Juggernaut would also be very good options. EDIT: Or, to approach it from a different angle, you could take Ragman. He loves having heavy armoured troops around, and MoW love having a damage boost 1) Fun fact. A charging flanking Kodiak with one focus on buy has a 73.54% chance to kill said Iron Clad. No charge (walk into it) has a 52% with one focus. I love odds machine for answering the fun questions. 2) On the table I think you will find you OFTEN have the focus to throw around Winter's Wrath to set up shatter. Yes....you are leaving her naked but she is ARM 18 with 17 boxes and in this situation DEF 16. She is pretty hard to kill. 3) We agree about Rags. See above I may start testing with one less Kovnik/no Dragos and see how that plays out.
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Post by smoothcriminal on May 30, 2018 11:20:29 GMT
After some testing I can agree arm 23 shocks are good. Arm 23 is where they start tanking buffed heavies.
You still need shooting to pick random things from afar. I gues you can use tankers for that in an otherwise melee-centric list.
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Post by sand20go on Jun 3, 2018 5:38:10 GMT
Two games today.
A) First one into Juris's Haley2 list (god I hate that caster with a PASSION). Lost as he removed an entire unit of Shocktroopers in shield wall with shooting. I HATE hurricane. I mean I really hate it. Stormemmiter is awfully strong. (Slamming shit into stuff. I guess the right play is NO Shield wall - just IF and ARM 19 on the shocks on that side of the board with the Mechs 5/6 inchs back). Game ended when I moved sorscha too far forward and got shot off table. Frustrating game - I remain an "un"fan of Haley2.
B) Second game lost on clock but was winning a LOT on scenario against Baldur2 with a few high value Beasts. Sadly we learned that Beast 09 can NOT kill Wordwrath with Roots even with flank. It was a pretty pathetic effort. That said, Demo Corp ROCKED on this game....and definately did NOT use them that efficiently. It was a good learning experience in showing me that sometimes you would want IF on the DemoCopr in a game where it is likely you are going to HAVE to charge most of the Manofwars to crack armor.
And of course learning that when you are up 4-1 on scenario and are likely to start scoring on THEIR turn run you models to jam and contest and clock back. 7 turn game San...7 turn game. It was a total brain fart not to think through how to ensure the win. But won't make that mistake again.
BTW - another bottom of 1 feat. That works well - cloud walling off the Man of wars and allowing them to really just run 10 inches to get up the board for positioning. Another error was not just removing the Wold Guardian and, instead, spreading out the damage. It is Baldur2....oversaturate fewer beasts
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Post by hocestbellum on Jun 3, 2018 7:51:56 GMT
What list were you playing? If it's the same one as before, I can't imagine the Suppression Tankers were doing much. It might be worth switching one to a Strike Tanker. Even with things like Arcane Shield and Roots limiting its effectiveness, it's still really good into those huge bases that are plaguing you.
I feel like a control caster a la Haley2 is always going to be a tough match-up, though.
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