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Post by sand20go on May 26, 2018 5:03:05 GMT
Well that was fun. Played the new list. Full Shock boat x2; 2 kovniks (may drop to one); Full Demo+Dragos; Altanas, 2 Supressors, Mechs and then Sorscha3+Kodiak and Beast.
Played it into Vyros 2 with Helios, Imperatus, a couple more lights and then a unit of Sentinals with the UA.
A) Surpressors worked well. We did get confused on one rule - which is wether you can still "base hug" or not (move around a model so you never leave being base to base. Not sure about that. I have to ask. But I screwed up one turn, forgetting that it is a star action not an attack and that they can lay down supressing fire even if engaged. That said, they did fine controlling that part of the battle field.
B) Sorscha did mean shit again. Imperatus being a pain.....well lets freeze him with WintersWrath. We misplayed Phoenix protocal....no it would NOT have shaken stationary so that jack would have been dead faster. God I love freeze and shatter.
C) Double shocks are PAIN to chew through. I loved saying "dice -9" and watching the Sentinals get frustrated.
D) I hATE helios. Pulled Beast into range of imperatus who ate him. Sadly could NOT clear the charge lane and so Kodiak got killed hy Helios later....but.....
E) man of wars did enough damage that SORSCHA and her sweet POW 16 hammer ended up taking Helios DOWN! Took 5 focus and she was in danger of dying to Vyros but Sorsha did the deed!!!
I think the list is in a good place. I WISH I had 1 more point to drop mechanics and get Ragman in but no dice right now. Kodiak is a HUGEly important piece because of the lask of pathfinder. Beast is Beast. The only thing I MAY do is lose a kovnik. Will need more testing with this vanilla.
So I just have to say guys you are going to be happy come next month. She has a solid depth. The lack of damage buffs can be a pain - but so far I have been getting through it OK. And DemoCorp....well they were HUGE this game because, again, just how well winters wrath synergizes with shatter.
And it was a weird game - I didn't even feat because with bird's eye there was hardly a reason to and I had sorsha more over toward the jacks and not on the side with the Sentinals. Glad I did that - cause - again - Sorscha killed a damaged Helios!!!
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Post by hocestbellum on May 26, 2018 9:34:44 GMT
Nice one!
I think the easiest way to get Ragman would be to drop a Kovnik, but a less popular choice would be to drop Dragos and shift your Free Model bonus to one of the Shocktrooper UAs. I'll admit to being biased against Dragos, though; all I ever want my Demo Corps to do is charge and do loads of damage, and I don't feel he helps as much as, say, Ragman for the points.
Some options to consider, as well; the Strike Tanker ended up being pretty awesome. It's an excellent flag camper, and it gives you a source of decent damage and Grevious Wounds whilst you solve its main issue of occasionally missing. It would have been great in that matchup, as Imperatus can't regenerate, and it would do about 10 damage a shot to Helios.
Also consider a single Forge Seer. Most of the Sorschas are pretty focus strapped, so a little extra never hurts, but you also have an excellent Winter's Wrath target in Beast-09.
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Post by sand20go on May 26, 2018 15:44:24 GMT
Nice one! I think the easiest way to get Ragman would be to drop a Kovnik, but a less popular choice would be to drop Dragos and shift your Free Model bonus to one of the Shocktrooper UAs. I'll admit to being biased against Dragos, though; all I ever want my Demo Corps to do is charge and do loads of damage, and I don't feel he helps as much as, say, Ragman for the points. Some options to consider, as well; the Strike Tanker ended up being pretty awesome. It's an excellent flag camper, and it gives you a source of decent damage and Grevious Wounds whilst you solve its main issue of occasionally missing. It would have been great in that matchup, as Imperatus can't regenerate, and it would do about 10 damage a shot to Helios. Also consider a single Forge Seer. Most of the Sorschas are pretty focus strapped, so a little extra never hurts, but you also have an excellent Winter's Wrath target in Beast-09. I am finding that while she always WANTS the extra focus she doesn't NEED it. Flank with our jacks with 2 (or three) initials is so powerful that I have often loaded up our jacks and found myself with extra focus. Now that gets "dicey" and you might wiff your rolls but it is something I am getting the hang of. But Forge seers are always good and they also can proc flank from 9/10 inchs away. Dragos is interesting. When he works he is GREAT. My feeling is that, over time, people will understand that "when he works he is great" and make him the principal target of their efforts in the early game. Taking away vengeance from the democorp makes them a lot less powerful....and you HAVE to figure out the right timing for band of brothers (yesterday did it bottom of 1 and I think the right play. And then he DOES have 2 initials. More testing is likely in order. I think the easiest change (until the Chariots) will be to take out a kovnik and put in Rags. That will help SO MUCH on the attrition game so that the Shocks can get work done. It does mean that one unit (supported) is going to have to do what shocks do best, get IF, go waddle to the key "defensive zone" and just hang (tough - perhaps with Atlantas). I can see with the chariots come out getting the one that mulchs infantry and jugggling. But that looms off as I am trying to be good until the end of June with my bank account. Finally, I think you guys are going to be really happy once you get her on the table. She has _GOOD_ tool box. If I owned a second unit of Bombers i probably would give her a go as a gunline - with the clouds being strong that way, the bombers getting out a ridiculously high volume of hire and the strike and supressor tankers (and charriots) offering up additional ways to lay down the hurt. No buffs but Pow 14 and greater is often legit enough. Maybe I can pick some up for cheap on ebay...... Something like conflictchamber.com/#c3201b_-0Tk_kVkUl4l4l3l3l27Ml07Ml0jJKhador Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Armored Corps !!! Your army contains pre-release entries. (Sorscha 3) Kommandant Sorscha Kratikoff [+28] - Beast 09 [18] - Spriggan [17] Man-O-War Strike Tanker [0(5)] Man-O-War Strike Tanker [5] Man-O-War Suppression Tanker [0(6)] Man-O-War Suppression Tanker [0(6)] Kommandant Atanas Arconovich & Standard [7] Man-O-War Bombardiers (max) [16] - Man-O-War Bombardier Officer [5] Man-O-War Bombardiers (max) [16] - Man-O-War Bombardier Officer [5] Man-O-War Assault Chariot [14]
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Post by sand20go on May 27, 2018 4:33:10 GMT
First match up I felt on my heels (or at least requiring me to play a tight and good game - which I didn't). It was into Madrak 2 with Double Champs, Double Bears, double Fire dudes. Plus Spread the Net - the worst scenario for AK.
Essentially got Jammed out. Supressor tankers are starting to make me sad. If people put effort into killing them they DO die. Add in the lack of dual attack/gunfighter and it is not THAT hard to jamm them. In this case the Bears did it on both flanks - first kiling one (god those guys are good) with Gang and then the other being solidly jammed. Champtions with 5 dice hit hard (smile). And of course overtake and zerk is a thing to help you from killing your own guys. And Sorscha3 was very sad not being able to control things due to immunity cold.
Interested to think about what I learned about pairings from this. There are NOT that many hard hitting infantry with immunity to cold but clearly this is one of them and Northkin in general could be a pain. Vlad1 with lots of rockets feels good as he can probably hit the rockets and try to snipe out the stone scribes to reduce the bubble. OW2 feels poor and would just get overwhelmed.
So what are people liking into Madrak2? Maybe just accept it will be something of a tough match up?
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Post by smoothcriminal on May 27, 2018 21:41:15 GMT
All Vlads are good because s&p/hof negates their def skew. B3 is good because he can negate tough. Generally things that negate tough are good. B3 wgk with widowmakers, carriage and elims would probably be the best anti-madrak list we could have.
I like the no-shock S3 list version. Ironically shocks while being good for other casters are the worst choice for S3.
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Post by sand20go on May 27, 2018 22:48:37 GMT
I like the no-shock S3 list version. Ironically shocks while being good for other casters are the worst choice for S3. Do you think that because she lacks a damage buff for them? Cause my god IF is good on them. ARM 23 (and tough with Altanas) is simply god awful to chew through for MANY MANY lists.
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Post by smoothcriminal on May 28, 2018 17:01:06 GMT
I feel like her synergy with other things surpasses the arm 23 synergy. Just being tanky isn't good enough when other options are demos who kill things very dead with freeze spell, bombers who shoot very far or jacks who get flank bonuses. Also the IF and +2 def from S3 can make demos/bombers reasonably tanky so they don't need a wall of shocks in front of them. Sure, arm 23 shocks can tank weaponmaster charges, but if you take bombers and tankers your plan becomes shooting those weaponmasters before they charge rather than tanking it.
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Post by hocestbellum on May 28, 2018 17:50:23 GMT
What other synergy? Flank triggers off all MoW, and the Shocks are more likely to survive in combat. Do you need the Demo Corps to hit harder when all your jacks get Flank for free? Do you need Bombardiers to shoot a few weaponmasters when she can lay down auto-damage clouds and a massive bomb of freeze?
I've not played her, but it seems like she is great for the Shocktroopers, good for the Demo Corps, and doesn't do anything interesting for the Bombardiers at all.
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chuggyg
Junior Strategist
Posts: 474
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Post by chuggyg on May 28, 2018 19:23:35 GMT
She has very limited focus with which to support her other things, and the Bombardiers are entirely self-sufficient. Shocktroopers require a buttload of support to get working and the support she offers them is better spent elsewhere (such as on herself!)
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Post by smoothcriminal on May 28, 2018 21:47:08 GMT
Bombardiers are good by themselves with any caster.
Shocks do not have an output of demos on frozen target. The idea is that S3 spell autohits under some conditions which leads to autodead something.
So if you go demos+bombers+jacks you max on damage, is relatively tanky against ranged and you can shoot opposing melee with bombers/tanks it with jacks.
Shocks are good with Vlad2 because he can alpha with them. Shocks are good with Battle lust/Fury casters because with those spells shocks provide all the damage you need leaving demos out of work. S3 is probably the only case where you want demos over shocks.
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Post by hocestbellum on May 28, 2018 21:54:18 GMT
She has very limited focus with which to support her other things, and the Bombardiers are entirely self-sufficient. Shocktroopers require a buttload of support to get working and the support she offers them is better spent elsewhere (such as on herself!) Self sufficiency is the opposite of synergy, though? Also, I disagree with everything in that second sentence. Sorscha only has one buff to give out, and there is no better target for Iron Flesh in Khador than the Shocktroopers. But hey, if you really need to cast Wind Rush, Winter's Wrath, and Stoke the Fires, feel free to drop Iron Flesh. Have the Kovnik give the Demo Corps Desperate Pace and have Atanas give them Relentless Charge. The Shocktroopers will be fine. Shocktroopers require no support whatsoever, but because they are so good as a baseline they get much better when they have buffs. My issue with the Bombardiers is that I'm not sure what they actually do? They don't have the attack volume to deal with numbers, the power to deal with heavies, or the accuracy to deal with lights. The die to P12s, so you can't use them to hold a scenario reliably or do much in melee. If they get a perfect minifeat turn, there's no denying that it's a sight to behold, but if anything goes a bit pear-shaped they're not a lot of use. On the other hand, almost whatever shape things end up in, the Shocktroopers will probably still be useful simply because they have excellent stats. They are more survivable and they hit harder. Hell, they're not even too bad at shooting given that it's a tacked-on extra. Frankly, for the cost and role of the Bombardiers you can get all four Tankers, and I'd argue that they're better at the jobs that need doing.
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Post by hocestbellum on May 28, 2018 22:48:48 GMT
Bombardiers are good by themselves with any caster. Shocks do not have an output of demos on frozen target. The idea is that S3 spell autohits under some conditions which leads to autodead something. So if you go demos+bombers+jacks you max on damage, is relatively tanky against ranged and you can shoot opposing melee with bombers/tanks it with jacks. Shocks are good with Vlad2 because he can alpha with them. Shocks are good with Battle lust/Fury casters because with those spells shocks provide all the damage you need leaving demos out of work. S3 is probably the only case where you want demos over shocks. I 100% get why you want Demos, but I still don't get why you want Bombardiers. Demos and Jacks kill everything. What do the Bombardiers do? Their damage is insignificant compared to the other two, and they have no staying power. You say Demos + Bombs + jacks is max damage, but it's almost no different to Demos + Shocks + Jacks. With Demos and Shocks you lose no real damage output, and gain significant resilience to shooting, an improvement to your scenario game, the best target for Iron Flesh, and a very good Flank enabler. Because let's be clear, Demos die when they come under any serious pressure, and you don't want your Bombardiers, Tankers, Forge Seers or Sorscha in melee. Shocks and Demos is, in my opinion, a far better use of Sorscha's abilities.
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Post by sand20go on May 29, 2018 0:48:52 GMT
Played into Juris's Seige2 gravediggers today to see how that went. Good grinding game I lost on Scenario. Biggest mistake was having Sorscha in rough terrain, which then limited her ability to freeze the Ironclad on a critical turn on which she wanted to (to help trigger shatter on the demo Corp so THEY could go in and kill it and Not B-09.
Another thing I noticed was the inability of the list to get back to get rid of the support (master gunner, Rags, to an extent Express crew. Not sure there is an answer to that - basically a feature of Khador that often times we have to play against an army fully supported).
But it definitely was a BETTER game into that matchup. I have had WG die horrifically to all those Trenchers. Given delta in experience (and skill) I think it did fine.
We theorycrafted the Haley 2 match up - with the concern being that at POW 14 the shocks are going to have a hard time with the Hurricane and that with shooting Haley CAN remove a Jack a turn while controlling/TK everything else. The good news is that she can remove ALL the clouds - so perhaps that helps weather it out for a while.
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chuggyg
Junior Strategist
Posts: 474
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Post by chuggyg on May 29, 2018 2:28:16 GMT
She has very limited focus with which to support her other things, and the Bombardiers are entirely self-sufficient. Shocktroopers require a buttload of support to get working and the support she offers them is better spent elsewhere (such as on herself!) My issue with the Bombardiers is that I'm not sure what they actually do? They don't have the attack volume to deal with numbers, the power to deal with heavies, or the accuracy to deal with lights. The die to P12s, so you can't use them to hold a scenario reliably or do much in melee. If they get a perfect minifeat turn, there's no denying that it's a sight to behold, but if anything goes a bit pear-shaped they're not a lot of use. They have higher attack volume than either of the other two man-o-war units (quick work, critical shred, and a ranged attack that you will get to fire at least once before they hit melee), their melee power is only 1 less than the shocktroopers, while their ranged power can be buffed with CRAs (and is on its own the same POW 14 that shocktroopers pull), and they have the highest to-hit of the 3 man-o-war units, with the same mat 7 in melee, and the rat 6 shooting that can be aimed to effective rat 8 and CRA'd all the way up to an effective rat of 14. Shocktroopers are not good on their own. Their base profile is only better by a single ARM. They die to the same pow 12's that everything else does, only slightly less quickly. They require the use of their shield wall order to be worthwhile, and using shield wall requires at the very least a speed buff. Shocktroopers are a very passive, very obvious unit: they shield wall and advance. Occasionally they charge (and then all die, which is no different than what demo corps do except you're swinging at -2 pow and paying more points for them). Bombardiers are actively aggressive: they threaten high power shots across a pretty good range (16" on their own). Demo corps force the opponent to make decisions and can bully them: run one or two of them ahead of the rest of the unit and the other guy is stuck between dealing with them and triggering vengeance, or ignoring them and taking a couple of charges the next turn. Both of these units have the tools to put the other player on the backfoot, while shocktroopers cede control over the flow of the game to the other guy while only asking a question (can you crack armor?) that is asked both elsewhere in our faction and elsewhere in the game at a much higher difficulty.
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Post by sand20go on May 29, 2018 4:03:03 GMT
My issue with the Bombardiers is that I'm not sure what they actually do? They don't have the attack volume to deal with numbers, the power to deal with heavies, or the accuracy to deal with lights. The die to P12s, so you can't use them to hold a scenario reliably or do much in melee. If they get a perfect minifeat turn, there's no denying that it's a sight to behold, but if anything goes a bit pear-shaped they're not a lot of use. They have higher attack volume than either of the other two man-o-war units (quick work, critical shred, and a ranged attack that you will get to fire at least once before they hit melee), their melee power is only 1 less than the shocktroopers, while their ranged power can be buffed with CRAs (and is on its own the same POW 14 that shocktroopers pull), and they have the highest to-hit of the 3 man-o-war units, with the same mat 7 in melee, and the rat 6 shooting that can be aimed to effective rat 8 and CRA'd all the way up to an effective rat of 14. Shocktroopers are not good on their own. Their base profile is only better by a single ARM. They die to the same pow 12's that everything else does, only slightly less quickly. They require the use of their shield wall order to be worthwhile, and using shield wall requires at the very least a speed buff. Shocktroopers are a very passive, very obvious unit: they shield wall and advance. Occasionally they charge (and then all die, which is no different than what demo corps do except you're swinging at -2 pow and paying more points for them). Bombardiers are actively aggressive: they threaten high power shots across a pretty good range (16" on their own). Demo corps force the opponent to make decisions and can bully them: run one or two of them ahead of the rest of the unit and the other guy is stuck between dealing with them and triggering vengeance, or ignoring them and taking a couple of charges the next turn. Both of these units have the tools to put the other player on the backfoot, while shocktroopers cede control over the flow of the game to the other guy while only asking a question (can you crack armor?) that is asked both elsewhere in our faction and elsewhere in the game at a much higher difficulty. Interesting take. Given that you like bombers who do you like WITH them? Feels like you have to have something that buffs their shooting (vlads?) and then maybe can leverage something like Victor or Spriggan? Maybe Andy2 - schoot and shooting with the bombers? But unboosted POW 14 isn't THAT great stuff. I guess Vlads.....
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