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Post by darkshroud on Apr 26, 2018 14:15:16 GMT
meh, just wanted to point out that Curse of Shadows has uses outside being a damage buff, don't really care about the conversation preceding it Thatll work as a gotcha moment a couple of times but as soon as people play against her theyll remember that "one simple trick to win all the games!!" and make sure to negate it as much as possible. granted your opponent cant always account for it but i feel like its going to be more corner case than anything else.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Apr 26, 2018 14:23:36 GMT
I don't think you can rationally balance models around the fact that other people will learn how to play against them...
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Post by Aegis on Apr 26, 2018 14:30:22 GMT
Curse of Shadows has more utility than just a damage buff, you can use it to push through a screening/jamming unit and get to the juicy stuff behind thats what you got out of that conversation? not the fact that the guy i quoted went straight to doomsday and basically said it was the end of competitive warmachine outside those 4 factions? GamingDevil put it much more eloquently than i did Chiiiiiil Ouuuut(™),.... I'm the guy you quoted, and I didn't said at all that. Learn to read what you quote before saying to others to chill. I didn't said that they will necessarily push the respective factions to the top of competition or called any doom. Actually, chill out doubly, since I specifically said that Denny is probably less a problem than Sevy and Sorscha. What I said is that the zeros WILL shift the power of those factions in better, and that doing a change like that only to 4 factions is unfair for the others. I don't know if any of those 4 faction will end up as too strong, but what I know is that those 4 models will be close to auto-includes in the themes that permit them, and auto-includes are bad for the game. Journeyman Warcaster, Choir, Paingivers, etc... are models that heavily shift the balance of the respective factions, influencing their design space and limiting the options, both in developing and list building (since, as an example, Menoth players know that they have X points in every single list already locked into their choir). Introducing new models like that is bad, and, in my opinion, we will see it on the long run, when the initial enthusiasm of the respective factions will fall... On my side, I'm glad Caine0 lost Snipe. It was a thing I dreamed about since I started to play Cygnar to have Snipe availible everywhere, but that would have been an huge problem in the long run for Cygnar, so I'm very glad our buff is a situational one. It's one less thing that will limit our models in future.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Apr 26, 2018 14:35:42 GMT
meh, just wanted to point out that Curse of Shadows has uses outside being a damage buff, don't really care about the conversation preceding it Thatll work as a gotcha moment a couple of times but as soon as people play against her theyll remember that "one simple trick to win all the games!!" and make sure to negate it as much as possible. granted your opponent cant always account for it but i feel like its going to be more corner case than anything else. Cygnar players hate him, this Cryx player has a 100% win rate using this one weird trick!
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Post by darkshroud on Apr 26, 2018 14:40:40 GMT
I don't think you can rationally balance models around the fact that other people will learn how to play against them... there was a spat of knee jerk reactions by PP and it seems like they got sick of it and made a statement, "let the meta figure it out" so, yes.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Apr 26, 2018 14:43:49 GMT
I don't think you can rationally balance models around the fact that other people will learn how to play against them... there was a spat of knee jerk reactions by PP and it seems like they got sick of it and made a statement, "let the meta figure it out" so, yes. I think my intent came across backwards. I meant that Denny should not be made more powerful than "one gimmick" just on the fact that people can figure out that gimmick.
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Post by darkshroud on Apr 26, 2018 14:44:32 GMT
thats what you got out of that conversation? not the fact that the guy i quoted went straight to doomsday and basically said it was the end of competitive warmachine outside those 4 factions? GamingDevil put it much more eloquently than i did Chiiiiiil Ouuuut(™),.... I'm the guy you quoted, and I didn't said at all that. Learn to read what you quote before saying to others to chill. I didn't said that they will necessarily push the respective factions to the top of competition or called any doom. Actually, chill out doubly, since I specifically said that Denny is probably less a problem than Sevy and Sorscha. What I said is that the zeros WILL shift the power of those factions in better, and that doing a change like that only to 4 factions is unfair for the others. I don't know if any of those 4 faction will end up as too strong, but what I know is that those 4 models will be close to auto-includes in the themes that permit them, and auto-includes are bad for the game. Journeyman Warcaster, Choir, Paingivers, etc... are models that heavily shift the balance of the respective factions, influencing their design space and limiting the options, both in developing and list building (since, as an example, Menoth players know that they have X points in every single list already locked into their choir). Introducing new models like that is bad, and, in my opinion, we will see it on the long run, when the initial enthusiasm of the respective factions will fall... On my side, I'm glad Caine0 lost Snipe. It was a thing I dreamed about since I started to play Cygnar to have Snipe availible everywhere, but that would have been an huge problem in the long run for Cygnar, so I'm very glad our buff is a situational one. It's one less thing that will limit our models in future. maybe i read too much into, but your opening line "1 second after the zeroes release, this will happen:" which screams doom and gloom. also, "Cryx lists will have an extra ARM debuff in every list" is factually wrong. which reinforced my thought process. EDIT: also, for cryx at least, shes definitely not an auto include
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Post by Aegis on Apr 26, 2018 15:12:00 GMT
maybe i read too much into, but your opening line "1 second after the zeroes release, this will happen:" which screams doom and gloom. also, "Cryx lists will have an extra ARM debuff in every list" is factually wrong. which reinforced my thought process. If I say that "the second after the zero release, the clock will tick" that doesn't scream any doom. Don't stop at just opening lines. Sure, it's not every list, is every list that permits her, and that also happens for the other zeros. That said, having sources of buffs outside casters is a big deal. Giving a JR a spell that works outside his BG is like giving that spell to every caster (in those themes), and in general its a bad thing. Out of caster buffs should be very limited. Some factions don't even have any source of them. In the past, it was always a thing that devs did carefully and rarely. This time, it's clear that they weren't careful at all. Those 4 factions didn't particulary need buffs. The buffs weren't selected carefully to tweak something in those factions... They chose Cygnar, Cryx, Menoth and Khador just because they were the original 4 factions, and the buffs were chosen just basing on what the 1 version of those casters iconically did. Just the fact that they passed from an extremely powerful RNG buff like Snipe to a situational buff that has nothing to do with RNG like FFE tells a lot on how careless they were in those decisions (also because they changed it in a few days. Those kind of buffs shouldn't be considered for just few days before being introduced). This tells a lot on how poorly the developement team is managing the game balance lately. Their work honestly feels much like the house rules that small metas or groups of friends come up with ("wouldn't be cool if...?") without any parvence of the professional careful and well tought work that I expect from a multi-national company. Again, I don't know if any of those zeros will break the meta, but their relese is still a bad thing, since it's an unfair buff to 4 arbitrarily selected factions and an heavy burden on future developement options. I can't wait to hear Khador players whine "but that new caster doesn't have any mobility buff! Our slow jacks need that!" and be answered "But you have Sorscha0 for that, and giving a double buff would be too much", or Menoth players whining that a model has a poor MAT or RAT for his points, only to be answered "but you have Sevy0, so shut up!". That is what will likely happen in future. Models that COULD have some features in their base stats, will not have them because the almost automatic access to buffs will make those inclusions too strong. That will transform the Zeros in burdens for the factions that include them, and they will be more a burden the more powerful and versatile they are. I wouldn't also exclude nerfs in future, that maybe wouldn't have been necessary if the zeros weren't released, if some combos result to be too strong. If you have to pay for a model only to have something that someone else has on base stats, that is a tax and a negative thing for the faction, even more since while a buff is always availible, it will not be on all models at the same time. But since models have to be balanced at their best possible performance to avoid crazy-powerful combos, having access to widespread buffs becomes a limitation and not a benefit in the long run.
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Post by HubertJFarnsworth on Apr 26, 2018 15:36:54 GMT
If I say that "the second after the zero release, the clock will tick" that doesn't scream any doom. Don't stop at just opening lines. Sure, it's not every list, is every list that permits her, and that also happens for the other zeros. That said, having sources of buffs outside casters is a big deal. Giving a JR a spell that works outside his BG is like giving that spell to every caster (in those themes), and in general its a bad thing. Out of caster buffs should be very limited. Some factions don't even have any source of them. In the past, it was always a thing that devs did carefully and rarely. This time, it's clear that they weren't careful at all. It's not clear the weren't careful. In fact it looks to me like they intentionally started them strong because it was cool and then brought it down to be more in-line with faction balance. Those 4 factions didn't particulary need buffs. The buffs weren't selected carefully to tweak something in those factions... They chose Cygnar, Cryx, Menoth and Khador just because they were the original 4 factions, and the buffs were chosen just basing on what the 1 version of those casters iconically did. Which is a perfectly valid reason to make a model. People seem to forget that this game only exists because they were making a DnD supplement and thought "Wouldn't it be cool if we made our own game in the setting". It's pretty obvious from talking to any of the PP team at cons that they're just giant nerds who want to make cool stuff, and there's nothing wrong with that being the starting point for model design. What helps makes it great for us is that they give the community the chance to break it first so it doesn't become miserable for everyone else down the road. At the model design panel at L&L 2014 (admittedly a long time ago now) they stated that 90% of models start as a cool idea and then the rules are made/added to match the idea; almost nothing starts as "We need to give this faction X rule, how do we build a model around it?" Just the fact that they passed from an extremely powerful RNG buff like Snipe to a situational buff that has nothing to do with RNG like FFE tells a lot on how careless they were in those decisions (also because they changed it in a few days. Those kind of buffs shouldn't be considered for just few days before being introduced). This tells a lot on how poorly the developement team is managing the game balance lately. Their work honestly feels much like the house rules that small metas or groups of friends come up with ("wouldn't be cool if...?") Good, those rules are more fun. The last time the devs worried about keeping things from being too strong before they worried about making cool things we got Wrath, which has some of the most mediocre releases in the history of the game. There were years where the only casters anyone played out of that book were Ossyan and Damiano because the rest were either boring or not committed enough to what cool ideas they did have to compete with existing choices. In fact it's only in the last year or so that models from Wrath like Triumph, Torch, and battle engines finally got to a place where they're fun and compelling choices. without any parvence of the professional careful and well tought work that I expect from a multi-national company. Nitpicking I know but PP is not a multinational company. They are a small, privately-owned developer with probably under 100 staff (admittedly this is an educated guess) based out of the United States. They have no overseas offices or holdings; they contract with factories in China for production but they do not own them as far as we know. Again, I don't know if any of those zeros will break the meta, but their relese is still a bad thing, since it's an unfair buff to 4 arbitrarily selected factions and an heavy burden on future developement options. The factions were not arbitrarily selected, as you pointed out above. They were selected because it is their 15th anniversary, it is not any other faction's 15th anniversary. There is nothing wrong with the devs making cool things to celebrate a milestone for those factions. I can't wait to hear Khador players whine "but that new caster doesn't have any mobility buff! Our slow jacks need that!" and be answered "But you have Sorscha0 for that, and giving a double buff would be too much", or Menoth players whining that a model has a poor MAT or RAT for his points, only to be answered "but you have Sevy0, so shut up!". That is what will likely happen in future. Models that COULD have some features in their base stats, will not have them because the almost automatic access to buffs will make those inclusions too strong. That will transform the Zeros in burdens for the factions that include them, and they will be more a burden the more powerful and versatile they are. Maybe you're right, I don't know. If that happens then we'll see it, probably in CID, test it, and get it changed. This isn't any different than conversations that have been happening for years in literally every wargame. Why can't Skorne get heavies with a base P+S of 19? Because they have Enrage. Why can't Ret get Fury? Because Sentinels are already crazy strong. Etc, etc. [/quote] I wouldn't also exclude nerfs in future, that maybe wouldn't have been necessary if the zeros weren't released, if some combos result to be too strong. You can say that about literally any release that isn't trash though. "I wouldn't also exclude nerfs in future, that maybe wouldn't have been necessary if Denny1 weren't released, if some combos result to be too strong." Sometimes things become too strong and they get nerfed, that's just part of game design and it's something that any video game community deals with all the time. It's newish to wargaming because it wasn't convenient before, but that's not the case anymore. We have the ability to go back later and fix mistakes if they do fall through the cracks, that doesn't mean we should not care about balance on release but it also means that we can have cool things and deal with the problem when it becomes a problem rather than imagining it might be a problem and therefore we should take away the cool.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Apr 26, 2018 15:47:19 GMT
If I was still Khadorguy I would go for this:
Khador Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Jaws of the Wolf
!!! Your army contains CID entries.
(Harkevich 1) Kommander Harkevich, The Iron Wolf [+28] - Behemoth [25] - Juggernaut [13] - Juggernaut [13] - Kodiak [13] - Kodiak [13] - Kodiak [13] Greylord Forge Seer [0(4)] Greylord Forge Seer [0(4)] Kovnik Apprentice Kratikoff [0(4)] - Rager [10] Widowmaker Marksman [0(4)] Battle Mechaniks (min) [3]
Mobility and Boundless Charge give the warjacks a 12" threat, Iron Sentinel does not specify 'battlegroup warjack', so the Rager can babysit Hark.
Between two Empowers and Boundless Charge you have some pretty good focus support for Hark.
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Post by macdaddy on Apr 26, 2018 16:00:54 GMT
If I was still Khadorguy I would go for this: Khador Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Jaws of the Wolf !!! Your army contains CID entries. (Harkevich 1) Kommander Harkevich, The Iron Wolf [+28] - Behemoth [25] - Juggernaut [13] - Juggernaut [13] - Kodiak [13] - Kodiak [13] - Kodiak [13] Greylord Forge Seer [0(4)] Greylord Forge Seer [0(4)] Kovnik Apprentice Kratikoff [0(4)] - Rager [10] Widowmaker Marksman [0(4)] Battle Mechaniks (min) [3] Mobility and Boundless Charge give the warjacks a 12" threat, Iron Sentinel does not specify 'battlegroup warjack', so the Rager can babysit Hark. Between two Empowers and Boundless Charge you have some pretty good focus support for Hark. Lightweight.... conflictchamber.com/#c3201b_-0x8DkRkZkZkZkZkZkZkZhFhFe3kTlOkZKhador Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Jaws of the Wolf !!! Your army contains CID entries. (Harkevich 1) Kommander Harkevich, The Iron Wolf [+28] - Berserker [8] - Rager [10] - Rager [10] - Rager [10] - Rager [10] - Rager [10] - Rager [10] - Rager [10] Greylord Forge Seer [0(4)] Greylord Forge Seer [0(4)] Kovnik Andrei Malakov [0(4)] - Marauder [11] Kovnik Apprentice Kratikoff [4] - Rager [10] 10 Jacks or Bust
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Post by The Snark Knight on Apr 26, 2018 16:23:24 GMT
Lightweight.... conflictchamber.com/#c3201b_-0x8DkRkZkZkZkZkZkZkZhFhFe3kTlOkZKhador Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Jaws of the Wolf !!! Your army contains CID entries. (Harkevich 1) Kommander Harkevich, The Iron Wolf [+28] - Berserker [8] - Rager [10] - Rager [10] - Rager [10] - Rager [10] - Rager [10] - Rager [10] - Rager [10] Greylord Forge Seer [0(4)] Greylord Forge Seer [0(4)] Kovnik Andrei Malakov [0(4)] - Marauder [11] Kovnik Apprentice Kratikoff [4] - Rager [10] 10 Jacks or Bust Build that list, and you could be the first person ever to cast Broadsides with Harkevich.
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Post by Aegis on Apr 26, 2018 16:24:47 GMT
I disagree with pretty much everything you wrote. House rules made by small groups of casual players are, at 99%, unbalanced and create more problem than the perceived problem they try to resolve. The few house-rules that actually get recognized for being better than the original professional product are almost always done by big groups of fans working toghether, to a point where it become an almost professional work. The whole thing about releasing OP models and then tuning them down is bullshit. A model balancing shouldn't be done in a few days like it happens in CID, and even when the process work, almost always ends up being un-inspired, since the best the crowd can do is hammering down and up the outliers, making the models generically more flat. Being able to introduce specific buffs, even over the curve, but with a precise and carefully measured plan is the work professional developers should do, and that PP devs aren't doing lately. And finally not. Doing wrong things just to "maybe correct later in CID" is not ok. It is not what happens in serious games companies or what the job of developers is. The job of a developer is to study the game and carefully discuss and test potential new models to improve the game. Throwing in any crazy idea passes in their mind and "see what happens", eventually passing to the community the responsability to fix errors is not what a developer is paid for. Warmachine used to be a very balanced game, where even the few outliers didn't totally wrecked the meta, because it used to have developers able to put out models, by themselves, that were well balanced and with a clear idea of what was healthy for the game and what wasn't. Every few months, the developers now show to be inadeguate. The game still has a solid basis and CID helps to avoid crazy downfalls, but much of the MK3 decisions they made are bad in the long run, and the game is slowly falling down, and that can be seen even locally, where most metas are losing players instead of gaining them.
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Post by macdaddy on Apr 26, 2018 16:28:00 GMT
The Snark Knight IS THAT A CHALLENGE? Isn't the rager rat4? So would broadside even be worth it then? lol
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Post by HubertJFarnsworth on Apr 26, 2018 16:50:07 GMT
I disagree with pretty much everything you wrote. House rules made by small groups of casual players are, at 99%, unbalanced and create more problem than the perceived problem they try to resolve. The few house-rules that actually get recognized for being better than the original professional product are almost always done by big groups of fans working toghether, to a point where it become an almost professional work. The whole thing about releasing OP models and then tuning them down is bullshit. A model balancing shouldn't be done in a few days like it happens in CID, and even when the process work, almost always ends up being un-inspired, since the best the crowd can do is hammering down and up the outliers, making the models generically more flat. Being able to introduce specific buffs, even over the curve, but with a precise and carefully measured plan is the work professional developers should do, and that PP devs aren't doing lately. And finally not. Doing wrong things just to "maybe correct later in CID" is not ok. It is not what happens in serious games companies or what the job of developers is. The job of a developer is to study the game and carefully discuss and test potential new models to improve the game. Throwing in any crazy idea passes in their mind and "see what happens", eventually passing to the community the responsability to fix errors is not what a developer is paid for. Warmachine used to be a very balanced game, where even the few outliers didn't totally wrecked the meta, because it used to have developers able to put out models, by themselves, that were well balanced and with a clear idea of what was healthy for the game and what wasn't. Every few months, the developers now show to be inadeguate. The game still has a solid basis and CID helps to avoid crazy downfalls, but much of the MK3 decisions they made are bad in the long run, and the game is slowly falling down, and that can be seen even locally, where most metas are losing players instead of gaining them. Using public play testing is not the developers being bad at their jobs, it's just a fact that more people finds more problems than few people. This is an accepted practice in the video game industry because it produces results. The difference is that nobody gets up in arms about something entering play test because it's there to be fixed. If PP thought the models entering CID were ready to ship they wouldn't be doing CID. You're right, they didn't used to use public playtesting. Instead we had Haley2 and Gaspy2 remaining dominant for years while huge swaths if several factions languished in mediocraty. Now in just the last eight months we've seen casters like Kraye and Abby1 and models like the battle engines and ogrun receive the changed they need to become powerful and fun to play. Not to mention the fact that the model count of the game has just about doubled since the start of MkII. You are absolutely kidding yourself saying the outliers in MkII didn't wreck the meta, MkII was dominated by power casters like Gaspy2, Morvanna2, Saeryn1, and of course Haley2. There were years where the list pairing expectation was always that you had to build one list to deal with Cryx, specifically Crazy ideas are 100% good for the game as long as they don't cause balance problems. Crazy ideas are what draw in new players and keep veterens interested. If they didn't come up with crazy stuff we would never have gotten epic casters, or colossals, or character warnouns. Have you read the rules in Apotheosis? Almost everything in that book was busted so bad it took the better part of two editions to bring them in line. Look man, if you don't like CID that's fine, you're free to not participate or leave the game or whatever you want to do. But this declaration that "back in the day" PP put out better balance than they do now is some extremely rose-tinted glasses crap, and saying that public playtesting means the developers are bad at their jobs is simple ignorance of how gaming works in 2018.
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