faelin
Junior Strategist
Posts: 121 
|
Post by faelin on Apr 9, 2018 17:44:13 GMT
Nah man. I can't see the CID link, but if they implied that, you have a right to be grumpy.
As a CoC player I look at the new releases and the post CID models and think "I got to kill that first". Because they're all really good. Not completely broken, but still really good.
It seems like more and more of an uphill battle. Everything is at a higher power level then before, except for the limited/merci-ons. It feels like we're .8 of what everyone else is. It gets old.
Especially in a faction where 2/3 of our models are underwhelming. There's a reason most people take destruction initiative for both their lists, and it's not because our other theme is so good it feels unfair.
PP Strawman
Yes only these four were in since the start of the game, but too bad. You expanded your game, deal with it, and treat your factions fairly. At the very least support your other full faction, Retribution. You can wave CoC and merc-ions off as limited. Fine, ill suck it up and deal with it. But it's hard to validify discriminating against Ret if they are really supposed to be a full faction like the others.
|
|
granor
Junior Strategist
Posts: 353
|
Post by granor on Apr 9, 2018 18:17:34 GMT
This is what Soles said in the link
Hordes was released on April 22, 2006. So 15 years is ... carry the one ... 2021
|
|
|
|
Post by ForEver_Blight on Apr 9, 2018 18:55:01 GMT
This is what Soles said in the link Hordes was released on April 22, 2006. So 15 years is ... carry the one ... 2021 3 years is a hell of a long time to wait in a competitive game... Then again, however far in and still no metal versions of BB casters as proposed. But waiting is part of the game. "You are too concerned with what was and what will be. " -Oogway |
|
|
|
Post by copperflame on Apr 10, 2018 13:10:55 GMT
"You are too concerned with what was and what will be. " -Oogway You are my hero. |
|
|
|
Post by finnigan2004 on Apr 11, 2018 11:42:35 GMT
This is what Soles said in the link Hordes was released on April 22, 2006. So 15 years is ... carry the one ... 2021 3 years is a hell of a long time to wait in a competitive game... Then again, however far in and still no metal versions of BB casters as proposed. But waiting is part of the game. "You are too concerned with what was and what will be. " -Oogway Yeah, with Hordes generally seeming behind the power curve and Circle behind much of Hordes, I guess they have made a decision on how they will handle game balance. |
|
snoozer
Junior Strategist
Posts: 467
|
Post by snoozer on Apr 26, 2018 7:52:46 GMT
It is not the end of the world that they release models like this. The fact that not every faction gets one does not instantly imbalance the game or tilt the power curve in any measurable way.The Troll Warlock will obviously be Doomshaper  |
|
Cyel
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
|
Post by Cyel on Apr 26, 2018 11:05:30 GMT
This is what Soles said in the link Hordes was released on April 22, 2006. So 15 years is ... carry the one ... 2021 3 years is a hell of a long time to wait in a competitive game... Then again, however far in and still no metal versions of BB casters as proposed. But waiting is part of the game. This weekend a big (for our standards) national tournament has 10 Warmachine players and 26 Hordes players tournykeeper.com/#/tournament/details/540 A year ahead of the meta, as usual ? |
|
|
|
Post by Aegis on Apr 26, 2018 11:05:54 GMT
It is not the end of the world that they release models like this. The fact that not every faction gets one does not instantly imbalance the game or tilt the power curve in any measurable way.The Troll Warlock will obviously be Doomshaper 1 second after the zeroes release, this will happen: - Protectorate lists will have a +1 attack and +1 damage buff on pretty much the whole list - Khador lists will have access to +2" threat range, pathfinder when it matters, and their jacks will have an extra focus over the 4 (free charge). They'll also translate all Prowl to Stealth on the approach and have +2 DEF against shooting. - Cryx lists will have an extra ARM debuff in every list, and the possibility to pass through models to arrive in the second line or to get backstrikes. Some lists will also be able to collect souls at range. - Cygnar lists will have access to double mage bullets outside Caine casters, and Thunderbolt and ShodowFire outside Sons of Tempest. They'll also have some nasty combos available, like Thunderhead in HM will likely always be full boosted. Those are faction-wide buffs, that WILL change the relative power of factions, expecially the first 2 (Denny and Caine probably will be a little less problematic). I don't think that it was fair to give those faction-wide buffs to only 4 factions and not to the others, and I think they will hurt the game in the long run (even if only by becoming auto-includes, and so eventually just a tax like Choir). |
|
|
|
Post by HubertJFarnsworth on Apr 26, 2018 11:13:03 GMT
I think you're overstating things a bit there. The Zeros are each only available in two themes, they require an attached jack, and they still cost points. It's not as if people are just going to be able to swap them out for an existing solo in every list.
They're powerful, sure, but they come with a pretty high opportunity cost for solos; depending on the jack they end up being a pretty expensive package (even if you get them free you don't get the jack free [except Cryx who then doesn't get Denny free]. If you take the jack off of your main caster you lose battlegroup buffs.)
|
|
|
|
Post by Gamingdevil on Apr 26, 2018 12:03:20 GMT
I think you're overstating things a bit there. The Zeros are each only available in two themes, they require an attached jack, and they still cost points. It's not as if people are just going to be able to swap them out for an existing solo in every list. They're powerful, sure, but they come with a pretty high opportunity cost for solos; depending on the jack they end up being a pretty expensive package (even if you get them free you don't get the jack free [except Cryx who then doesn't get Denny free]. If you take the jack off of your main caster you lose battlegroup buffs.) Denny is never free as Infernal Machines flat out doesn't allow character solos to be free. Personally I see a use for her, but her opportunity cost is so enormous, and her debuff doesn't stack with caster debuffs, that I will really struggle to actually put her into any lists. In BI, realistically her node is only free when you're playing 90 points of jacks, because usually the first 2 will go on your main caster. If you're not playing 90 points of jacks, her node isn't free, and if you are, then she's competing with the Withershadow, Aiakos, Iron Lich Overseer and other utility solos for those last 9-11 points. She also most likely won't be taking anything besides a node, because BI casters are usually taken for their powerful battle group effects. There are exceptions, such as Scaverous, but then she's directly competing with him for souls, or Deneghra 2 to an extent, but there's no overlap here. She also doesn't do anything for her jacks, she just lets them enable her. In IM, she always costs 10+ points, which is massive in the cheap infantry theme, that isn't even that good to begin with. She has uses, but they did a good job at not making her an auto-include. I agree that Severius is a no-brainer and Sorscha is very hard to pass up (Caine is just cool I guess?) At least Severius isn't the overpowered monstrosity he was at the start. |
|
|
|
Post by ForEver_Blight on Apr 26, 2018 12:34:38 GMT
Happy to see that. But I can't say that's been the norm. Eitherway I don't think the game is too far tilted right now. I'm not going to start an argument over what is OP and what needs a fix. It causes too much drama. PP has shown they are working to stitch up those gaps in one way or another. 0 casters are a bump up, yes, but equally they took down a "worst offender" in the process. Khador and PoM, to my knowledge, are not bulldozing the scene. So that leaves "is Denny 0 going to break something" and we can't say. They were totally up in the air with what, 3 different spell list possibilities? We'll see when she gets released. I don't directly hate any of the 0's after Caine lost snipe. Plain as that. But I do hope for just a little more equality in Battlegroup controllers for Hordes. Focus was, in MK2, a limited resource and so held back Warjacks too much. Now most every WM faction has at least 1 focus generating FA2 solo and now 2 Juniors to generate up to 8-10 focus that's not reliant on the caster. Not including powerup. That is tremendous. Before the explosion of Fury>Focus. Yeah, it is. I know that. But again, focus is not in short supply anymore so the gap is small or non-existant. It's still better for caster survival. But jacks got more efficient and are more easily loaded now. It's just the way it's going to be for MK3. |
|
|
|
Post by darkshroud on Apr 26, 2018 12:37:55 GMT
It is not the end of the world that they release models like this. The fact that not every faction gets one does not instantly imbalance the game or tilt the power curve in any measurable way.The Troll Warlock will obviously be Doomshaper 1 second after the zeroes release, this will happen: - Protectorate lists will have a +1 attack and +1 damage buff on pretty much the whole list - Khador lists will have access to +2" threat range, pathfinder when it matters, and their jacks will have an extra focus over the 4 (free charge). They'll also translate all Prowl to Stealth on the approach and have +2 DEF against shooting. - Cryx lists will have an extra ARM debuff in every list, and the possibility to pass through models to arrive in the second line or to get backstrikes. Some lists will also be able to collect souls at range. - Cygnar lists will have access to double mage bullets outside Caine casters, and Thunderbolt and ShodowFire outside Sons of Tempest. They'll also have some nasty combos available, like Thunderhead in HM will likely always be full boosted. Those are faction-wide buffs, that WILL change the relative power of factions, expecially the first 2. I don't think that it was fair to give those faction-wide buffs to only 4 factions and not to the others, and I think they will hurt the game in the long run (even if only by become auto-includes, and so eventually just a tax like Choir). chilllll ouuuuut denny 0 can be taken in 2 lists. infernal machine, which no one plays, and black industries. and really, black industries doesnt need the damage. i feel like theyd rather have aiakos to take advantage of the +2 deployment and get even more speed from him to really push up the table. |
|
|
|
Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Apr 26, 2018 13:13:32 GMT
1 second after the zeroes release, this will happen: - Protectorate lists will have a +1 attack and +1 damage buff on pretty much the whole list - Khador lists will have access to +2" threat range, pathfinder when it matters, and their jacks will have an extra focus over the 4 (free charge). They'll also translate all Prowl to Stealth on the approach and have +2 DEF against shooting. - Cryx lists will have an extra ARM debuff in every list, and the possibility to pass through models to arrive in the second line or to get backstrikes. Some lists will also be able to collect souls at range. - Cygnar lists will have access to double mage bullets outside Caine casters, and Thunderbolt and ShodowFire outside Sons of Tempest. They'll also have some nasty combos available, like Thunderhead in HM will likely always be full boosted. Those are faction-wide buffs, that WILL change the relative power of factions, expecially the first 2. I don't think that it was fair to give those faction-wide buffs to only 4 factions and not to the others, and I think they will hurt the game in the long run (even if only by become auto-includes, and so eventually just a tax like Choir). chilllll ouuuuut denny 0 can be taken in 2 lists. infernal machine, which no one plays, and black industries. and really, black industries doesnt need the damage. i feel like theyd rather have aiakos to take advantage of the +2 deployment and get even more speed from him to really push up the table. Curse of Shadows has more utility than just a damage buff, you can use it to push through a screening/jamming unit and get to the juicy stuff behind |
|
|
|
Post by darkshroud on Apr 26, 2018 13:58:58 GMT
Curse of Shadows has more utility than just a damage buff, you can use it to push through a screening/jamming unit and get to the juicy stuff behind thats what you got out of that conversation? not the fact that the guy i quoted went straight to doomsday and basically said it was the end of competitive warmachine outside those 4 factions? GamingDevil put it much more eloquently than i did |
|
|
|
Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Apr 26, 2018 14:00:30 GMT
Curse of Shadows has more utility than just a damage buff, you can use it to push through a screening/jamming unit and get to the juicy stuff behind thats what you got out of that conversation? not the fact that the guy i quoted went straight to doomsday and basically said it was the end of competitive warmachine outside those 4 factions? GamingDevil put it much more eloquently than i did meh, just wanted to point out that Curse of Shadows has uses outside being a damage buff, don't really care about the conversation preceding it |
|
