Cyel
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Cyel on Apr 26, 2018 17:12:44 GMT
Warmachine used to be a very balanced game, where even the few outliers didn't totally wrecked the meta, because it used to have developers able to put out models, by themselves, that were well balanced and with a clear idea of what was healthy for the game and what wasn't. Used to ? Isn't it the most balanced than ever before now, with almost all those OP outliers brought down ? That's definitely how I feel - current WM&H does have its problems, but as far as such huge, story-driven wargames go, its balance is unprecedented.
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Choco
Junior Strategist
Gorten, best feet in the game.
Posts: 571
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Post by Choco on Apr 26, 2018 17:37:08 GMT
Warmachine used to be a very balanced game, where even the few outliers didn't totally wrecked the meta, because it used to have developers able to put out models, by themselves, that were well balanced and with a clear idea of what was healthy for the game and what wasn't. Used to ? Isn't it the most balanced than ever before now, with almost all those OP outliers brought down ? That's definitely how I feel - current WM&H does have its problems, but as far as such huge, story-driven wargames go, its balance is unprecedented. Warmachine, back in MKI especially, was so imbalanced. I found that you either played Sorscha1/Vlad2 or an answer to them. There was no questioning that Khador was OP back in the day. Denny1 was on a different level too. Haley1 was the most frustrating rules breaker with how Temporal Barrier worked (or was supposed to work). I can go on, but this game has come an extremely far way towards balanced since MKII dropped and started to fix these major problems. I think that the feeling of Grymkin and Orion being so strong is because they have so few options available that the need incentive to play said models, especially when there isn't a lot of variation in list building. There has to be a bit of a trade off here and there. As of right now, there aren't many, if any lists/casters/models that are such outliers that they are Meta shifting. There are strong lists, but every faction has strong lists right now. No one list is dominating anymore since the Ghost Fleet changes.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Apr 26, 2018 18:11:43 GMT
If we're going back to MK1 I want flying to ignore freestrikes again. I'd be good with just that.
[/sarcasm]
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Choco
Junior Strategist
Gorten, best feet in the game.
Posts: 571
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Post by Choco on Apr 26, 2018 18:37:54 GMT
If we're going back to MK1 I want flying to ignore freestrikes again. I'd be good with just that. [/sarcasm] I want to be able to throw Gorten or the Drakhun and not have to sacrifice an action or movement when it activates.
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Post by HubertJFarnsworth on Apr 26, 2018 18:41:33 GMT
How about Deathjack charging it's warcaster if it doesn't get enough Focus?
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Post by oncomingstorm on Apr 26, 2018 19:33:05 GMT
I think what people may be missing here is that PP has never been particularly good at balance. Yeah, they try, and they have some concept of what 'game-breakingly powerful' means and why it's bad for the game to have models that do break the game (which is more than their competition at the time did). But when you look at the crap that existed in Mk1, and how much of it persisted through mk2 (Gaspy2 bullshit, Haley2, Denny1), and how much MORE problem stuff was released during mk2 (EE, Denny2 Body and Soul, Wold War, Morvahna2)...and then you look at the Mk3 release, which solved a few problems and created a bunch more (and then we got Una2)...it's pretty clear that PP isn't the best at managing balance internally.
The community is a blunt instrument for achieving balance, and it is definitely not ideal. But it's much better than what we got before, and almost certainly better than what we'd still be getting otherwise. Would you be happy in a world where the 0s, V1.0 Eilish, and the Oppression Tanker v1 made it to full release? Because that's very likely what we would have gotten if not for CID.
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Post by The Snark Knight on Apr 26, 2018 20:34:01 GMT
The Snark Knight IS THAT A CHALLENGE? Isn't the rager rat4? So would broadside even be worth it then? lol I'd still say not, but technically they do have guns.
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Post by The Snark Knight on Apr 26, 2018 20:36:56 GMT
I think what people may be missing here is that PP has never been particularly good at balance. Compared to what?
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Post by HubertJFarnsworth on Apr 26, 2018 20:43:31 GMT
I think what people may be missing here is that PP has never been particularly good at balance. Compared to what? Weebles
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Post by oncomingstorm on Apr 26, 2018 20:43:49 GMT
I think what people may be missing here is that PP has never been particularly good at balance. Compared to what? Compared to the hypothetical image of PP past that some people get into their heads. Some people seem to look at PP's past releases with rose-colored glasses, and ignore the many, many times they've missed the mark.
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Post by darkshroud on Apr 26, 2018 20:51:21 GMT
Compared to the hypothetical image of PP past that some people get into their heads. Some people seem to look at PP's past releases with rose-colored glasses, and ignore the many, many times they've missed the mark. and really, compared to other game tabletop minis wargames, how does wm fair? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_miniature_wargamesi dont hear of others that have these cycles of balance.
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Post by HubertJFarnsworth on Apr 26, 2018 21:36:07 GMT
40ks balance used to be "whoever has the newest release has the best stuff".
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Ganso
Junior Strategist
Posts: 932
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Post by Ganso on Apr 26, 2018 23:37:15 GMT
Look man, if you don't like CID that's fine, you're free to not participate or leave the game or whatever you want to do. But this declaration that "back in the day" PP put out better balance than they do now is some extremely rose-tinted glasses crap, and saying that public playtesting means the developers are bad at their jobs is simple ignorance of how gaming works in 2018. After 25 years of being online, I think this is the first time I will actually use the next phrase: Quoted for Truth!
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Ganso
Junior Strategist
Posts: 932
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Post by Ganso on Apr 26, 2018 23:44:35 GMT
I think what people may be missing here is that PP has never been particularly good at balance. Yeah, they try, and they have some concept of what 'game-breakingly powerful' means and why it's bad for the game to have models that do break the game (which is more than their competition at the time did). But when you look at the crap that existed in Mk1, and how much of it persisted through mk2 (Gaspy2 bullshit, Haley2, Denny1), and how much MORE problem stuff was released during mk2 (EE, Denny2 Body and Soul, Wold War, Morvahna2)...and then you look at the Mk3 release, which solved a few problems and created a bunch more (and then we got Una2)...it's pretty clear that PP isn't the best at managing balance internally. The community is a blunt instrument for achieving balance, and it is definitely not ideal. But it's much better than what we got before, and almost certainly better than what we'd still be getting otherwise. Would you be happy in a world where the 0s, V1.0 Eilish, and the Oppression Tanker v1 made it to full release? Because that's very likely what we would have gotten if not for CID. You make good points here. Though I would also add that at the game size and model count they want to handle, PP is better at game balance and design than any of their competitors.
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Post by macdaddy on Apr 27, 2018 1:05:58 GMT
40ks balance used to be "whoever has the newest release has the best stuff". Used to be? That hasn’t changed much
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