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Post by HubertJFarnsworth on Apr 28, 2018 14:13:32 GMT
Unfortunately DGI didn't record all players, just the top of each event (except the team events for whatever reason). Most events only have the top 3 spots reported, with a handful going to 6. So sadly this can't tell us total player count, which means Cryx didn't necessarily have 3 times the attendance of Protectorate, but they did "place" three times as often. I suspect they did have more players in the first place, but it's hard to say how many since it isn't recorded.
I'm curious where you're getting this 74% number Aegis, do you have any sources for that data?
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walden
Junior Strategist
Posts: 136
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Post by walden on Apr 28, 2018 15:18:45 GMT
Even working with your own numbers, if we compare the % of total players and % of placements, we have a more relevant statistic. We would expect that if a faction makes the 23% of total players, it wins 23% of total tournaments.. Let's see how is in real: Cygnar = -1% Protectorate = +1% Khador = -4% Cryx = +9% Retribution = +0% Convergence = -3% Mercenaries = +0% Trollbloods = +0% Circle = -2% Legion = +0% Skorne = -1% Minions = +0% Looking at your own statistics, we see that all factions are actually very close to the expected placement percentages. If a faction makes the 10% of players, it wins close to 10% of the tourneys. The biggest outlier is Cryx, who anyway wins just 9% of the tourneys more than expected. That 9% is totally in line with the statistics I provided by memory, since if the expected win chances are 50%, 9% of that is 4,5% , so 54,5% Thank you for proving my point that MK2 balance between factions was very good, with just Cryx being slightly over the curve. This is certainly a much easier way to read this thank you! I am more interested in the casters. MK2 factions may have had similar win percentages, but you would only really ever see certain power casters. Currently in MK3 you see nearly the same percentage win rate faction wide, but a plethora of competative casters from every faction. All running very different lists in the faction.
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Post by Aegis on Apr 28, 2018 22:56:45 GMT
Even working with your own numbers, if we compare the % of total players and % of placements, we have a more relevant statistic. We would expect that if a faction makes the 23% of total players, it wins 23% of total tournaments.. Let's see how is in real: Cygnar = -1% Protectorate = +1% Khador = -4% Cryx = +9% Retribution = +0% Convergence = -3% Mercenaries = +0% Trollbloods = +0% Circle = -2% Legion = +0% Skorne = -1% Minions = +0% Looking at your own statistics, we see that all factions are actually very close to the expected placement percentages. If a faction makes the 10% of players, it wins close to 10% of the tourneys. The biggest outlier is Cryx, who anyway wins just 9% of the tourneys more than expected. That 9% is totally in line with the statistics I provided by memory, since if the expected win chances are 50%, 9% of that is 4,5% , so 54,5% Thank you for proving my point that MK2 balance between factions was very good, with just Cryx being slightly over the curve. This is certainly a much easier way to read this thank you! I am more interested in the casters. MK2 factions may have had similar win percentages, but you would only really ever see certain power casters. Currently in MK3 you see nearly the same percentage win rate faction wide, but a plethora of competative casters from every faction. All running very different lists in the faction. Yes, it's true. What I was talking about is "external balance", or balance between factions. You are right that internal balance in MK2 was a mess, and most factions had just 2-3 competitive casters. That is one of the thing where MK3 is better than MK2. That said, while internal balance is very important, external balance is even more. It's true that we had things like Haley2 and Gaspy monopolizing their respective factions, but at least at tourneys everyone had similar chances overall.
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Post by Aegis on Apr 28, 2018 22:59:22 GMT
Unfortunately DGI didn't record all players, just the top of each event (except the team events for whatever reason). Most events only have the top 3 spots reported, with a handful going to 6. So sadly this can't tell us total player count, which means Cryx didn't necessarily have 3 times the attendance of Protectorate, but they did "place" three times as often. I suspect they did have more players in the first place, but it's hard to say how many since it isn't recorded. I'm curious where you're getting this 74% number Aegis, do you have any sources for that data? There was a topic few months ago, during the Ghost Fleet peak, that collected data from different tourneys, and it showed that Cryx had absurd win percentages, followed by Grymkin. I dunno if after the nerf to ghost fleet things gotten better, but still that was the biggest deviation from the curve I have ever seen since I played.
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crow
Junior Strategist
Posts: 310
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Post by crow on Apr 29, 2018 15:29:47 GMT
Mostly a casual player, but I love the game a heck of a lot more since mark 3 rolled out then mark 2. I've found most complaints about mark 2 being better comes from people who were playing the power casters, usually didn't own much more then said power casters with said powered lists, and have had to struggle to figure out lists on their own come mark 3 (at least after the major rules update that came shortly after launch). I've found internal balance has become better, and although there are some external balance issues, there are not enough that I've ever felt like "man ____ faction would never survive a game against _____ faction". Maybe that's just me, but it's just what I've noticed from my own experience.
Also I've noticed mark 3 is WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY better for allowing jacks into the game. Mark 2 people used usually enough jacks to fill jack points or just ran a colossal. I like being able to run a bunch of robot dudes, rather than 1-MAYBE-2. I mean, I won't say mark 3 is perfect, and I did lose some things in the transition (I used to have a killer constance list that worked mark2 but didn't with the changes going into mark3 as well as Durgen), but overall I do feel I've gotten access to more casters, and I can play more what I want to play and still remain relevant.
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Post by Aegis on Apr 29, 2018 22:00:41 GMT
Mostly a casual player, but I love the game a heck of a lot more since mark 3 rolled out then mark 2. I've found most complaints about mark 2 being better comes from people who were playing the power casters, usually didn't own much more then said power casters with said powered lists, and have had to struggle to figure out lists on their own come mark 3 (at least after the major rules update that came shortly after launch). I've found internal balance has become better, and although there are some external balance issues, there are not enough that I've ever felt like "man ____ faction would never survive a game against _____ faction". Maybe that's just me, but it's just what I've noticed from my own experience. Also I've noticed mark 3 is WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY better for allowing jacks into the game. Mark 2 people used usually enough jacks to fill jack points or just ran a colossal. I like being able to run a bunch of robot dudes, rather than 1-MAYBE-2. I mean, I won't say mark 3 is perfect, and I did lose some things in the transition (I used to have a killer constance list that worked mark2 but didn't with the changes going into mark3 as well as Durgen), but overall I do feel I've gotten access to more casters, and I can play more what I want to play and still remain relevant. I don't think so. I hated Haley2 in MK2, refused to play her despite playing Cygnar since she was a BPE for the opponent, I used to play Nemo3 when everyone tought it was trash, and stopped to play it when it became mainstream (Now I mostly play Darius and Nemo1, far from power casters). That said, I still think that MK2 had better balance between factions and the devs did know what they were doing more at the time. That doesn't mean that MK3 hasn't many good points, it has. As an example, the internal balance of the factions is better and you see more different casters at tournaments, but still has/had many big stupid errors in this first years and the devs look like they don't know what they are doing at all (CID is a blessing in that regard).
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Post by darkshroud on Apr 30, 2018 2:54:38 GMT
I don't think so. I hated Haley2 in MK2, refused to play her despite playing Cygnar since she was a BPE for the opponent, I used to play Nemo3 when everyone tought it was trash, and stopped to play it when it became mainstream (Now I mostly play Darius and Nemo1, far from power casters). That said, I still think that MK2 had better balance between factions and the devs did know what they were doing more at the time. That doesn't mean that MK3 hasn't many good points, it has. As an example, the internal balance of the factions is better and you see more different casters at tournaments, but still has/had many big stupid errors in this first years and the devs look like they don't know what they are doing at all (CID is a blessing in that regard). This thread is getting cyclical. You keep claiming mk2 was great. Yet others have pointed out, it really wasnt. Personal opinions are personal but you keep interjecting like youre right regardless of what other people think. Ok aegis, we get it.
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Post by fanbloodytastic on Apr 30, 2018 5:41:45 GMT
I don't think so. I hated Haley2 in MK2, refused to play her despite playing Cygnar since she was a BPE for the opponent, I used to play Nemo3 when everyone tought it was trash, and stopped to play it when it became mainstream (Now I mostly play Darius and Nemo1, far from power casters). That said, I still think that MK2 had better balance between factions and the devs did know what they were doing more at the time. That doesn't mean that MK3 hasn't many good points, it has. As an example, the internal balance of the factions is better and you see more different casters at tournaments, but still has/had many big stupid errors in this first years and the devs look like they don't know what they are doing at all (CID is a blessing in that regard). This thread is getting cyclical. You keep claiming mk2 was great. Yet others have pointed out, it really wasnt. Personal opinions are personal but you keep interjecting like youre right regardless of what other people think. Ok aegis, we get it. The problem is you really don’t seem to get what he is saying. You are making it sound like he is saying MK3 only made things worse. My take is he is just trying to explain why he is frustrated with some specific areas of the game, he explicitly says MK3 has many good points in the post you quoted. It also doesn’t help when people come in and claim anyone who has frustrations with the game are WAC netlisters who can’t adapt. This sentiment is what Aegis replied to.
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Post by Aegis on Apr 30, 2018 9:36:52 GMT
I see that there is someone that actually reads what I write before making random attacks claiming that I said things that I didn't, so no point replying (to him and to the ones that "like" those attacks). Fanbloodytastic said it all.
That said, I agree that this topic have got fairly a bit out of topic and we are talking past each other. We are not talking about zero casters anymore, so the time to close it has arrived.
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