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Post by elladan52 on Jan 25, 2018 21:03:01 GMT
I'm going to go out on a limb here and blame Cygnar for this CiD. Well, not Cygnar in general, but a certain Cygnaran Warcaster that looks a little bit like Albert Einstein. That is Nemo3! The problem is that Legion struggles into Cygnar gunlines, particular Nemo3's gunline, because of issues with the additional damage pow12 electroleaps. Now, what the problem is that Legion players want to have a list to hand that counters Nemo3. But that's the problem, Nemo3 is above the curve in terms of firepower, I've seen him neuter entire Khador Jackspam lines under his feat turn, he hits too damn hard. Now, when you're looking for a list with game, a lot of people seem to get confused. For example, Khador jack spam 'has good game' into a Cygnar Trencher leaf blower gun line. I.E the ones with a bunch of pow10. Now, what this doesn't mean is that at the start of the match the Cygnar players looks at me, knowing he has been defeated before rolling up the white flag and walks away, giving me access to his models, bank account and wife. But it means that its an uphill battle for him. Now the biggest issue with chosen, is the rapid healing ability and it needs to be changed. Either get rid of the bloody thing, or make it happen in the maintenance phase. Because these things are literally unkillable at range into the majority of the game. As a Khador player I can't kill them at range. ARM17 at least means dice -5 on my rockets, so I need to roll 13 to get a tough check, which it may heal back up to 4 boxes. Or if I roll high, and then hit it for 1 damage point, it can actually heal back the damage again. I say ARM17 at least because the BB is actually too good in this list to not take, and seeing as you can run and spew ash, the Chosen will be at least ARM19. With a few other buffs they can be easily have 20+ armour. Now a lot of moaning on their 'survivablilty' seems to come from people not using them right. Put these things in a zone, Hellmouth in toe with a Blightbringer behind them and how do you remove them? The Mouth has a longer range than most jacks, so it will pull one in and the Chosen will shred it. You can't shoot them to death, and grevious wounds is a terrible counter, seeing as the only models in Khador with it are a 6 point merc solo, or Assault Kommandos. Now look, I know people are looking to counter Nemo3, but if you successful counter his attacking power then you are so far up the curve that you're basically starting a power creep. And that never ends well. I too think 2 pt models that threaten 20" should have reasonable odds of killing 5 point models in one shot.
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Post by welshhoppo on Jan 25, 2018 21:16:49 GMT
But that's the thing, they don't.
It may come as a surprise to you, but Rockets are the hardest thing that Khador has that can shoot at range without being on a Large or Huge base. The reason that I use them as a reference is because in WGK lists, we need the rockets to do some softening up.
But at dice-5, they do 5 damage on average. So in reality they do 2-4. At dice-7, they barely do 1-2 points of damage on average.
And that point, whats the point of shooting them at all? So you have to expect them to get into combat at full strength. And more than likely with a damage buff on board.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Jan 25, 2018 21:25:20 GMT
But that's the thing, they don't. It may come as a surprise to you, but Rockets are the hardest thing that Khador has that can shoot at range without being on a Large or Huge base. The reason that I use them as a reference is because in WGK lists, we need the rockets to do some softening up. But at dice-5, they do 5 damage on average. So in reality they do 2-4. At dice-7, they barely do 1-2 points of damage on average. And that point, whats the point of shooting them at all? So you have to expect them to get into combat at full strength. And more than likely with a damage buff on board. I do not want this to sound snide or passive aggressive. But isn't that what an anti-gun tech piece is supposed to do? Should a model take little damage from guns? Or should it be just tanky enough to barely survive the approach and be easily kill-able once there? Again, not trying to be mean but I don't know how else to ask and I am legitimately curious what people's expectation are for the durability of a piece that's not supposed to die to average or slightly above average guns. I guess it could be wrapped/compared to another way. Should Khador Jacks, knowingly resilient to infantry guns, clearly survive Rockets (not even counting Vald 1) or should they take some damage, just not enough to disable it?
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Jan 25, 2018 21:36:53 GMT
But that's the thing, they don't. It may come as a surprise to you, but Rockets are the hardest thing that Khador has that can shoot at range without being on a Large or Huge base. The reason that I use them as a reference is because in WGK lists, we need the rockets to do some softening up. But at dice-5, they do 5 damage on average. So in reality they do 2-4. At dice-7, they barely do 1-2 points of damage on average. And that point, whats the point of shooting them at all? So you have to expect them to get into combat at full strength. And more than likely with a damage buff on board. I do not want this to sound snide or passive aggressive. But isn't that what an anti-gun tech piece is supposed to do? Should a model take little damage from guns? Or should it be just tanky enough to barely survive the approach and be easily kill-able once there? Again, not trying to be mean but I don't know how else to ask and I am legitimately curious what people's expectation are for the durability of a piece that's not supposed to die to average or slightly above average guns. I guess it could be wrapped/compared to another way. Should Khador Jacks, knowingly resilient to infantry guns, clearly survive Rockets (not even counting Vald 1) or should they take some damage, just not enough to disable it? If that is true, make rapid healing only work vs guns and stop it crushing melee charges so much.
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Post by welshhoppo on Jan 25, 2018 21:37:43 GMT
But that's the thing, they don't. It may come as a surprise to you, but Rockets are the hardest thing that Khador has that can shoot at range without being on a Large or Huge base. The reason that I use them as a reference is because in WGK lists, we need the rockets to do some softening up. But at dice-5, they do 5 damage on average. So in reality they do 2-4. At dice-7, they barely do 1-2 points of damage on average. And that point, whats the point of shooting them at all? So you have to expect them to get into combat at full strength. And more than likely with a damage buff on board. I do not want this to sound snide or passive aggressive. But isn't that what an anti-gun tech piece is supposed to do? Should a model take little damage from guns? Or should it be just tanky enough to barely survive the approach and be easily kill-able once there? Again, not trying to be mean but I don't know how else to ask and I am legitimately curious what people's expectation are for the durability of a piece that's not supposed to die to average or slightly above average guns. I guess it could be wrapped/compared to another way. Should Khador Jacks, knowingly resilient to infantry guns, clearly survive Rockets (not even counting Vald 1) or should they take some damage, just not enough to disable it? Only to a certain degree. I see anti-shooting tech and preventing you from getting blown off the table by guns, but if you over-extend or position badly, you shouldn't be protected in that regard. Anti-shooting tech shouldn't over compensate for bad positioning. Now with jacks, they don't heal from turn to turn, apart from a few fiendish elvish exceptions, so overextending or concentrated power will start to bring a jack down. Now boosted guns will damage a jack, and make it easier to kill once it gets where its going. However a unit of Chosen has the chance to be at full health if you only roll 1 or 2 for damage, whereas damage to a jack stays on the jack. And that's really my only issue with chosen, they have to be able to die if you shoot them enough times. If I unload 2 full units of rockets into them, I'd like to be able to kill at least 1 or 2 of them (6 rockets being 12 points after all.) But then you get problems where if you do most of your damage by shooting and don't have much in the way of melee output, that the Chosen are pretty much auto-nobrainer-counters.
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Post by Gamingdevil on Jan 26, 2018 10:16:15 GMT
Not biased one way or another, but it's worth noting that boosted POW 12 is also where most infantry is at. Chosen take multiple charging weapon masters, or multiple boosted attacks from a heavy (ranged or melee, but most likely the latter for volume) to bring down.
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Post by Blargaliscious on Jan 26, 2018 14:39:44 GMT
I'm going to go out on a limb here and blame Cygnar for this CiD. Well, not Cygnar in general, but a certain Cygnaran Warcaster that looks a little bit like Albert Einstein. That is Nemo3! [SNIP] You Europeans just absolutely kill me. While there are some outward similarities in hair color and allergy to hair trimming, I wouldn't have equated E=mc^2 to Nemo's maturity and wisdom. Nemo's facial structure, eyebrows, and demeanor always struck me more to be like the author Mark Twain. www.publishersweekly.com/pw/by-topic/industry-news/tip-sheet/article/64432-the-10-best-mark-twain-books.htmlWhile I have not paid super close attention, and this is the first one where I have had access to the CID forums, I'm with ForEver_Blight in that this CID was a bit of a flop. I'm glad to see the legacy stuff get some love, but the new theme is underwhelming in the form of concept and execution. When you take a look at the Warmachine factions and see their themes, they at least make sense. And while I would like to see some cross-over between themes, the Trencher theme has shown that PP will try to make the theme work, even with extreme exclusivity. the Northkin theme seems to be part exclusive, part overlay, so it seems to work as a theme. I'm not seeing it with Primal Terrors - it's a mess. Blight Bringer - great miniature, complete and utter steaming pile of crap for rules concept. And then, instead of wadding up the rules and saying "screw it, we're starting over!" with the CID, they double down on it. Tell me, has anyone ever made melee attacks with a Blight Bringer in a game? Anyone? Somebody needs to be put through a fine mesh screen and their fat rendered for coming up with the rules for that dumb thing... And it just kills me to see people complain about Thagrosh2 being "a bit tanky." I'm sorry, but when an ogrun has the heart of 2 dragons shoved into his body, shouldn't the line under his title "Thagrosh, the Messiah" be something along the lines of "Mr. Badass" or something? Shouldn't Thags2, Karchev, and Kromac2 be going out drinking and painting the town red... with blood? I'm sorry, but I see a lot of dumb concept coming out of PP for this theme, dumb arguing coming out of people for this theme, and little to look forward to when the release goes live in a couple of months. Hey, at least I'm saving money not having to buy more miniatures...
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Post by macdaddy on Jan 26, 2018 15:25:35 GMT
Blargaliscious What did you want from this theme? I feel it captures the "blighted ogrun" concept fairly well even if the in game application is the same old boring "AXE TO FACE AARRRGGGHHH" BB, its one of the "support" gargs. It just, did not do its job very well before. Now with a reasonable mat, and a better ability to buff the units around it, as well as an animus that deters single wound or light infantry from attacking it, it finally fulfills that role. What would you want it to do? Be a big gun platform instead of a support piece? Def 16 arm 24 with 20 boxes is...a lot. Sure you have to take a BB for that, but its still something that needs to be considered when testing. Its a big deal to let a caster plop in the middle of the board with relative safety. Especially one with flight who can just laugh at your caster in the process. If you don't like chosen...well I don't know man....they scream "orgun heavy cav" to me. It sounds like you just don't like the ogrun portion of legion at all.
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Post by welshhoppo on Jan 26, 2018 18:04:50 GMT
Well Pp got rid of my def 16 arm 24 20 box warcaster at the end of mkII with the changes to power fields.
He is hard to kill. Is he too hard to kill? Maybe.
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Post by boardroomhero on Jan 26, 2018 18:31:18 GMT
Not biased one way or another, but it's worth noting that boosted POW 12 is also where most infantry is at. Chosen take multiple charging weapon masters, or multiple boosted attacks from a heavy (ranged or melee, but most likely the latter for volume) to bring down. Do they? Arm 17 8 wounds means it takes a 25 to kill. That's right at 50/50 for a KE, the quintessential WM. If your argument is that it takes more than one WM to kill on average, then that is true for every model in the game, no matter how low its def stats (if not auto hit), so long as the WM only make one attack each.
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Post by Korianneder on Jan 26, 2018 19:14:24 GMT
Def 16 arm 24 with 20 boxes is...a lot. Sure you have to take a BB for that, but its still something that needs to be considered when testing. And an 18 point Carnivean, a 10 pt protector and 2 fury. So 60 points of a 100 point list. At that point just knock thags2 down or kill the protector or win on scenario because he's bunched up in a small area with most of his army.
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Post by Blargaliscious on Jan 26, 2018 19:39:35 GMT
Blargaliscious What did you want from this theme? I feel it captures the "blighted ogrun" concept fairly well even if the in game application is the same old boring "AXE TO FACE AARRRGGGHHH" BB, its one of the "support" gargs. It just, did not do its job very well before. Now with a reasonable mat, and a better ability to buff the units around it, as well as an animus that deters single wound or light infantry from attacking it, it finally fulfills that role. What would you want it to do? Be a big gun platform instead of a support piece? Def 16 arm 24 with 20 boxes is...a lot. Sure you have to take a BB for that, but its still something that needs to be considered when testing. Its a big deal to let a caster plop in the middle of the board with relative safety. Especially one with flight who can just laugh at your caster in the process. If you don't like chosen...well I don't know man....they scream "orgun heavy cav" to me. It sounds like you just don't like the ogrun portion of legion at all. Thank you for making my point in every single paragraph. So, what new ground did they break with the Primal Terrors theme? The Chosen. I actually like the Chosen, I think they did a good job there. Did they propagate the Rapid Healing to any of the other Ogrun with a character command attachment, or a spell on Anamag, or anything like that? Nope. All they did was crank out an ugly-ass warclock, a character warbeast, a couple of character attachments, regurgitated Grotesques, and some cavalry that people refuse to can't wrap their heads around. Tweak the existing ogrun to "not suck" levels and their work is apparently done on this theme. Emperor Blarg is giving a thumbs down on this CID. Support Gargossal = bad idea. At least with the Victor you can tweak the points down and make the tit guns actually do something. With the Sepulcher you can tweak the body collection rules to make it more of a M-thrall factory. It was stupid with a capital "F" for the Blight Bringer to have the rules it does from the beginning. I really couldn't care what the Blight Bringer does, I just think that the Blighted Ash and the Boiling Blood rules, as originally given, was not cutting it. If it is making warlocks hard to balance, and we need to choose between changing the warlock and changing the gargantuan, I'd pick letting the warlock be marvelous and reworking the gargantuan. PP has already shown that they are willing to re-work failing concepts - make the Blight Bringer a fire support piece as it trundles its way in to being the melee monster you don't want to face. They should strip out the Dragon's Breath and Spiritual Corruption in the immediate vicinity aspects, make the animus a real ball-buster poison pill, and MAT 6. Turn 1 run, Turn 2 walk/shoot, turn 3 charge/animus/melee, turn 4+ lather/rinse/repeat.
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Post by Blargaliscious on Jan 26, 2018 19:55:14 GMT
Blargaliscious What did you want from this theme? I feel it captures the "blighted ogrun" concept fairly well even if the in game application is the same old boring "AXE TO FACE AARRRGGGHHH" BB, its one of the "support" gargs. It just, did not do its job very well before. Now with a reasonable mat, and a better ability to buff the units around it, as well as an animus that deters single wound or light infantry from attacking it, it finally fulfills that role. What would you want it to do? Be a big gun platform instead of a support piece? Def 16 arm 24 with 20 boxes is...a lot. Sure you have to take a BB for that, but its still something that needs to be considered when testing. Its a big deal to let a caster plop in the middle of the board with relative safety. Especially one with flight who can just laugh at your caster in the process. If you don't like chosen...well I don't know man....they scream "orgun heavy cav" to me. It sounds like you just don't like the ogrun portion of legion at all. I'm sorry, my previous answer did not answer very well, I was venting. So, the BB is now balanced, but in the process of doing that it has now made Thags2 a very hard to remove brick. Your answer to one problem has just created a whole new problem, right? I would call that "a mess." So either PP has stuck to their guns on the BB and created a mess or they have opened a new dimension in the Legion list building strategy with warlock / BB bricking. OK, so talking about Thags2, is that a problem? Is he impossible to remove or just simply hard to remove? Should a player be allowed to sink ~35 points of warbeasts into making a particular warlock/gargantuan combo a P.I.T.A to remove? Is this combo a problem, or is it creating a new dimension in Legion list building? Is it creating a new question for the Legion players to ask? Is it giving a new answer for Legion players to answer questions with? Is the Thags2 / BB combo create a situation that cannot be replicated elsewhere in the game?
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Post by elladan52 on Jan 26, 2018 20:02:44 GMT
Blargaliscious What did you want from this theme? I feel it captures the "blighted ogrun" concept fairly well even if the in game application is the same old boring "AXE TO FACE AARRRGGGHHH" BB, its one of the "support" gargs. It just, did not do its job very well before. Now with a reasonable mat, and a better ability to buff the units around it, as well as an animus that deters single wound or light infantry from attacking it, it finally fulfills that role. What would you want it to do? Be a big gun platform instead of a support piece? Def 16 arm 24 with 20 boxes is...a lot. Sure you have to take a BB for that, but its still something that needs to be considered when testing. Its a big deal to let a caster plop in the middle of the board with relative safety. Especially one with flight who can just laugh at your caster in the process. If you don't like chosen...well I don't know man....they scream "orgun heavy cav" to me. It sounds like you just don't like the ogrun portion of legion at all. Thank you for making my point in every single paragraph. So, what new ground did they break with the Primal Terrors theme? The Chosen. I actually like the Chosen, I think they did a good job there. Did they propagate the Rapid Healing to any of the other Ogrun with a character command attachment, or a spell on Anamag, or anything like that? Nope. All they did was crank out an ugly-ass warclock, a character warbeast, a couple of character attachments, regurgitated Grotesques, and some cavalry that people refuse to can't wrap their heads around. Tweak the existing ogrun to "not suck" levels and their work is apparently done on this theme. Emperor Blarg is giving a thumbs down on this CID. Support Gargossal = bad idea. At least with the Victor you can tweak the points down and make the tit guns actually do something. With the Sepulcher you can tweak the body collection rules to make it more of a M-thrall factory. It was stupid with a capital "F" for the Blight Bringer to have the rules it does from the beginning. I really couldn't care what the Blight Bringer does, I just think that the Blighted Ash and the Boiling Blood rules, as originally given, was not cutting it. If it is making warlocks hard to balance, and we need to choose between changing the warlock and changing the gargantuan, I'd pick letting the warlock be marvelous and reworking the gargantuan. PP has already shown that they are willing to re-work failing concepts - make the Blight Bringer a fire support piece as it trundles its way in to being the melee monster you don't want to face. They should strip out the Dragon's Breath and Spiritual Corruption in the immediate vicinity aspects, make the animus a real ball-buster poison pill, and MAT 6. Turn 1 run, Turn 2 walk/shoot, turn 3 charge/animus/melee, turn 4+ lather/rinse/repeat. Well, let's open up the CID PDF and have ourselves a look-see... Oh what's that? Mat 6? With the option to hit mat 8 on its own? Huh. And that's one, two... yup, 3 initials. Cool. I'm sorry? Pow 18 and 2 pow 17s you say? Wow. Seems like it could do some damage in melee. Ok, but let's see the animus. Auto hitting spray 8 pow 10 that sets you on fire even if it fails to kill? Not sure I want to charge my infantry into that anymore. I'm sorry, how does what you said not describe exactly what it is right now?
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Post by chillychinaman on Jan 26, 2018 20:16:04 GMT
Well, let's open up the CID PDF and have ourselves a look-see... Oh what's that? Mat 6? With the option to hit mat 8 on its own? Huh. And that's one, two... yup, 3 initials. Cool. I'm sorry? Pow 18 and 2 pow 17s you say? Wow. Seems like it could do some damage in melee. Ok, but let's see the animus. Auto hitting spray 8 pow 10 that sets you on fire even if it fails to kill? Not sure I want to charge my infantry into that anymore. I'm sorry, how does what you said not describe exactly what it is right now? I think Blarg is mostly referring to the STR/ARM buff contributing to the Anamag/Thags2/Chosen skew that people are having problems with. I asked on the Legion board, but how is everyone else using their Blightbringer? I've always leaned more on the gun's application of it, aside from on the approach. I personally keep the Warmongers near it while the Chosen take a flank with an ARM buff until they charge when they can benefit from the combined +4ARM. I also keep my BB as far back as I can screened by the Ogrun. How often do people get boiling blood to trigger? I figured if a unit reached it, I must have messed up
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