|
Post by octaviusmaximus on Jan 25, 2018 5:08:29 GMT
PP seem to be going back and forth a lot with the chosen. I wonder what the final outcome will be. Arm 17 does nothing against heavy powered shooting but will frustrate lists with even boosted pwr 12s for shooting (assuming blight bringer -- which seems compulsory now the way PP keeps buffing it with every revision). Mathematically the difference between Arm 16 and 17 matters more for Heavy Warjacks charging than it does for shooting.
|
|
bward
Junior Strategist
Posts: 184
|
Post by bward on Jan 25, 2018 5:10:38 GMT
PP seem to be going back and forth a lot with the chosen. I wonder what the final outcome will be. Arm 17 does nothing against heavy powered shooting but will frustrate lists with even boosted pwr 12s for shooting (assuming blight bringer -- which seems compulsory now the way PP keeps buffing it with every revision). Mathematically the difference between Arm 16 and 17 matters more for Heavy Warjacks charging than it does for shooting. Can you elaborate on the math? Actually interested in this.
|
|
|
Post by octaviusmaximus on Jan 25, 2018 6:46:16 GMT
Mathematically the difference between Arm 16 and 17 matters more for Heavy Warjacks charging than it does for shooting. Can you elaborate on the math? Actually interested in this. Its nothing fancy, the problem I have with Chosen is about a high level of durability matched with a large number of ways to prevent them being controlled. I want to make this clear. I think that the difference between armour 16 and 17 is mostly immaterial for them because the real problem is that Incorp Models lose it within a massive distance of Ammok, You can't use terrain to slow them because of natural Pathfinder, you can't debuff them with spells like rebuke because of Ammok's unbinding and you can't get a turn of grace through knocking them down due to Ammoks Rise. But anyway, You need to think of a probability curve in order to see the effects of the healing abilities of the Chosen deathstar. Remember that while a 7 is average on 2 dice and 10.5 is average on 3 dice, this represents a 'most likely result' curve. If you need a 7 to hit (unboosted) or a 10.5 to hit (boosted) you are hitting around 50% of the time. The same applies for damage. So the ARM 21 Chosen (which applies to either large sections of the army in melee or 1 unit vs melee and shooting depending on which of the 4 casters you are taking) have 8 boxes. This means that if you want to cause a Tough check you need to have an attack which rolls a 29. Unboosted the most likely way to do this is a pow 22 attack. Boosted is a pow 18.5 attack. That causes a tough check around about 50% of the time meaning that 1/3 of the time that happens it doesn't and they are knocked down and healed up to 2-4. So already you need to consider that to actually cause tough checks to these models you need to muster multiple 18-19 Str boosted attacks or pow 21 unboosted attacks which is *massive*. Not just that, but consider that you are only hitting that 7+ or 10.5+ half the time. The rest you are rolling below that. If you roll below then their healing rule comes into play, meaning that if you roll a 6 on a Pow 22 attack (very common) then you aren't leaving it on 1 box, you are leaving it on 2-4 boxes. So when we are dealing with some of the hardest hitting attacks in the game (multiple boosted 18-19, for instance) your chances of causing a tough check are 50/50 (meaning less than 50% chance to kill due to tough), the consequences of rolling badly are high and the consequences to the Chosen if you roll well aren't all that bad because once you actually hit 8 boxes, they essentially have their free tough armour save and chance to regain up to half of their wounds back. Now, lets bring all of those numbers down by 1 if they have Arm 16. You need multiple Pow 21 attacks or multiple boosted Pow 17-18 attacks. This brings more things to play in the game, its true. But does it really make them less of a dick to move? I'd argue no, they are still ridiculously hard to kill to most attacks. The problem is that they hit around as hard as the hardest cav in the game (Storm Lances), they don't suffer from the lance rule like other contemporary models (Uhlans and Vengers), their pathfinder is unconditional and doesn't come from other models, they don't suffer from long term knockdown or debuffs like other cav due to Ammok. This is all under the idea that they have just given you multiple Chosen to attack with these heavy attacks, which is ludicrous. I've played games where Storm Lances live far past what they should becuase of clever use of reach and reposition after attacks. Adding that to a much more resistant statline as well as a unit that *heals when it kills living models* and the benefits of Chosen far outweigh the costs. From reading the Battle reports Legion players seem to consistently overextend their Chosen, fail to protect them adequately and allow heavies to reach multiple of them in a turn. They also report things happening like a pow 20 heavy wading into a unit and killing 4, which shouldn't happen mathematically very often, they shouldn't have allowed a heavy reach that far in to them and they also should have toughed some.
|
|
|
Post by thebuoyancyofwater on Jan 25, 2018 8:26:27 GMT
What about if they simply made chosen 5 boxes, DEF12 ARM17?
I agree that at the moment they seem to have the best of every world. Personally I'd drop pathfinder from them entirely, possibly as well as the change to boxes.
Cheers, Dave
|
|
|
Post by gobber on Jan 25, 2018 9:04:52 GMT
It doesn’t help that when we someone posts a battle report with balance concerns players get on there and talk about how” the report wasn’t good” or “you didn’t show that” or “your skewing evidence” I’m very frustrated with this weeks changes. For you, I’d accept just getting the rules right. This is unnecessary ad hominem. I have had my disagreements with Macdaddy and directly questioned some conclusions in his batrep threads this CID cycle; regardless of any disagreements I want to attest he's arguing in good faith.
|
|
|
Post by ForEver_Blight on Jan 25, 2018 13:04:08 GMT
Its nothing fancy, the problem I have with Chosen is about a high level of durability matched with a large number of ways to prevent them being controlled. I want to make this clear. I think that the difference between armour 16 and 17 is mostly immaterial for them because the real problem is that Incorp Models lose it within a massive distance of Ammok, You can't use terrain to slow them because of natural Pathfinder, you can't debuff them with spells like rebuke because of Ammok's unbinding and you can't get a turn of grace through knocking them down due to Ammoks Rise. But anyway, You need to think of a probability curve in order to see the effects of the healing abilities of the Chosen deathstar. Remember that while a 7 is average on 2 dice and 10.5 is average on 3 dice, this represents a 'most likely result' curve. If you need a 7 to hit (unboosted) or a 10.5 to hit (boosted) you are hitting around 50% of the time. The same applies for damage. So the ARM 21 Chosen (which applies to either large sections of the army in melee or 1 unit vs melee and shooting depending on which of the 4 casters you are taking) have 8 boxes. This means that if you want to cause a Tough check you need to have an attack which rolls a 29. Unboosted the most likely way to do this is a pow 22 attack. Boosted is a pow 18.5 attack. That causes a tough check around about 50% of the time meaning that 1/3 of the time that happens it doesn't and they are knocked down and healed up to 2-4. So already you need to consider that to actually cause tough checks to these models you need to muster multiple 18-19 Str boosted attacks or pow 21 unboosted attacks which is *massive*. Not just that, but consider that you are only hitting that 7+ or 10.5+ half the time. The rest you are rolling below that. If you roll below then their healing rule comes into play, meaning that if you roll a 6 on a Pow 22 attack (very common) then you aren't leaving it on 1 box, you are leaving it on 2-4 boxes. So when we are dealing with some of the hardest hitting attacks in the game (multiple boosted 18-19, for instance) your chances of causing a tough check are 50/50 (meaning less than 50% chance to kill due to tough), the consequences of rolling badly are high and the consequences to the Chosen if you roll well aren't all that bad because once you actually hit 8 boxes, they essentially have their free tough armour save and chance to regain up to half of their wounds back. Now, lets bring all of those numbers down by 1 if they have Arm 16. You need multiple Pow 21 attacks or multiple boosted Pow 17-18 attacks. This brings more things to play in the game, its true. But does it really make them less of a dick to move? I'd argue no, they are still ridiculously hard to kill to most attacks. The problem is that they hit around as hard as the hardest cav in the game (Storm Lances), they don't suffer from the lance rule like other contemporary models (Uhlans and Vengers), their pathfinder is unconditional and doesn't come from other models, they don't suffer from long term knockdown or debuffs like other cav due to Ammok. This is all under the idea that they have just given you multiple Chosen to attack with these heavy attacks, which is ludicrous. I've played games where Storm Lances live far past what they should becuase of clever use of reach and reposition after attacks. Adding that to a much more resistant statline as well as a unit that *heals when it kills living models* and the benefits of Chosen far outweigh the costs. From reading the Battle reports Legion players seem to consistently overextend their Chosen, fail to protect them adequately and allow heavies to reach multiple of them in a turn. They also report things happening like a pow 20 heavy wading into a unit and killing 4, which shouldn't happen mathematically very often, they shouldn't have allowed a heavy reach that far in to them and they also should have toughed some. This is all assume they are required to be one-shot from 100% to 0. So yes, the math looks very scary. Boosted pow 14s still have a reasonable chance of dealing damage. That's not scary. The issue becomes dealing 3 damage and them healing 2. Rapid healing is just dumb. I don't think it's worth the balance conundrum it's creating. It causes them to have far more "effective" hit points than any one unit should have. But they have already said that RH will not go away, end of subject. So as unbelievably stupid as it is, they need to have less armor because of the 4-5 casters in our entire stable that can actually buff their armor. They are literally one of the biggest releases of this CiD and I hate them and everything they stand for. "We're anti-shooting tech but because we can actually do that at peak performance we need to be nerfed so that we can't do that well with 80% of the casters in the faction." They could scrap the entire concept and I personally wouldn't care.
|
|
|
Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Jan 25, 2018 13:17:42 GMT
@forever_Blight after reading that I have to agree that Chosen present a bit of a conundrum. They have to be balanced around Rapid Healing, but then if they face off against something that ignores it then they suffer massively, and as a result are a bit of a liability. I agree removing rapid healing would make them much easier to balance, but as you said that's off the table. Glad I don't call the shots...
edit, tagging is not working for some reason...
|
|
|
Post by ForEver_Blight on Jan 25, 2018 13:18:39 GMT
But didn’t you know! The B.B. is 32 points so we don’t actualky consider what it does in chosen stats. Please refrain from hyperbole regarding this model.Can't wait until Circle gets a CID, and the Storm Raptor drops 6 points, gains an Armor, a MAT, ROF 2, and a useful animus. Seriously, I think they need to take a step back and look at what they're creating with the BB. the BE CID shows that PP sometimes has trouble balancing these splashy centerpiece models. Oncomingstorm - I accept and support the idea. Why would you not want them to take one of the WORST garg in the game and actually make it a compelling choice? I can only hope that the Raptor gets some updates. Blightbringer was the worst, slowest, tied for least accurate, egregious Garg in the game. Not a single soul gave a damn about it's existence until now. Why? Because in order to try and make a 38 point support model viable, PP took clearly outrageous strides. Everyone has gone out of their minds when CiD models drop with clear over powered BS. It's about dialing it back. Test it, properly, provide feed back. Keep the freaking salt to a minimum. If you don't like people disagreeing with you, you have the ability to not post on the forum. You can participate without getting all worked up and having arguments on the internet over toy soldiers.
|
|
|
Post by Gamingdevil on Jan 25, 2018 13:20:21 GMT
This is all assume they are required to be one-shot from 100% to 0. So yes, the math looks very scary. Boosted pow 14s still have a reasonable chance of dealing damage. That's not scary. One shotting them is by far the easiest way to deal with them. The more attacks you will need on average, the more chances they get to heal, which only drives up the number of attacks you will need at the end. A boosted POW 14 has about a 50/50 to kill, but if you roll under average a few times, you will have achieved nothing and now there's an angry ogre in your face. And this is just about the base ARM 17 while I think it is safe to assume they will be at least ARM 19 (BB aura or a spell) with upper limits of effective 21. At that point you need POW 17 boosted damage rolls to effectively deal with them and even then there's a good chance they will stay alive, especially with Tough in the equation. Now, I think their durability is sort of ok, they can be dealt with although at great cost. Incidentally it takes about the same effort to kill a Hellmouth Maw, which is apparently fine, so PP obviously wants this to be the "you need heavy level damage to deal with this or you will suffer"-theme, but I do think that their kit might be a bit too complete. Perhaps going back to DEF 11 and/or giving up Pathfinder, possibly in favour of Relentless Charge.
|
|
|
Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Jan 25, 2018 13:24:03 GMT
Abby 1 looks really fun with being able to have multiple mutations without spending Fury, giving a beast + 2 STR, +1SPD, Flight and Ashen Veil seems funny
|
|
|
Post by macdaddy on Jan 25, 2018 13:28:08 GMT
Can't wait until Circle gets a CID, and the Storm Raptor drops 6 points, gains an Armor, a MAT, ROF 2, and a useful animus. Seriously, I think they need to take a step back and look at what they're creating with the BB. the BE CID shows that PP sometimes has trouble balancing these splashy centerpiece models. Oncomingstorm - I accept and support the idea. Why would you not want them to take one of the WORST garg in the game and actually make it a compelling choice? I can only hope that the Raptor gets some updates. Blightbringer was the worst, slowest, tied for least accurate, egregious Garg in the game. Not a single soul gave a damn about it's existence until now. Why? Because in order to try and make a 38 point support model viable, PP took clearly outrageous strides. Everyone has gone out of their minds when CiD models drop with clear over powered BS. It's about dialing it back. Test it, properly, provide feed back. Keep the freaking salt to a minimum. If you don't like people disagreeing with you, you have the ability to not post on the forum. You can participate without getting all worked up and having arguments on the internet over toy soldiers. I don't mind when people disagree with me, but a lot of the salt is coming from legion players who disagree with me. EG: you adding the hyperbole quote to my quote. Kind of hypocritical don't you think? The sad part is, I don't actually diagree with the general community too much. My main opinions this cid that I have repeated over and over again: 1: Anamag does too much at once 2: Chosen are a little too durable because of rapid healing 3: The BB animus was dumb, now its just good (but still needs to be tested) 4: Thags 2 is really...really tanky right now and supports his army really well. I also have said Carniveans need a bumb, recommended rotwings get a bump, recomended BB bufs before his animus change. That +1 speed and cmd? I recommend that week one. You and some other people on here can get all salty with me. Can throw some snide punches my way, but at the end of the day all your doing is showing that as much as you "want to have a reasonable discussion" you get just as salty when someone says something you don't like. Its like what I said in the Bias thread in the legion sub forum. Everyone wears tinted glasses, and we are messing with other peoples toy soldiers here. Bias + personal connection to the topic tends to make arguments much more heated than they probably should be.
|
|
|
Post by ForEver_Blight on Jan 25, 2018 13:28:26 GMT
@forever_Blight after reading that I have to agree that Chosen present a bit of a conundrum. They have to be balanced around Rapid Healing, but then if they face off against something that ignores it then they suffer massively, and as a result are a bit of a liability. I agree removing rapid healing would make them much easier to balance, but as you said that's off the table. Glad I don't call the shots...
edit, tagging is not working for some reason... Truthfully, the grievous wounds issue gets on my nerves. Cryx, Cygnar, Grymkin, even Convergence, all requires some sort of specific tech to deal with. Incorp? Magical weapons. High Pow shooting? Shield guards. Corpse tokens? RFP. 8hit box, shield wall, recursive infantry? good luck. (I hate convergence *cough cough*) It's nothing new to the game to have a faction have certain mechanics that has another specific mechanic for counter play. This isn't the entirety of Legion you have to tech for. It's one unit that would be best dealt with by way of grievous wounds. Something that became pretty common in MK3 as apposed to 2. So while yes I do agree their healing is dumb. I do not believe it can't be dealt with. There is just a stark lack of motivation to change playstyle or meta list to do so, thus the community goes rabid about it.
|
|
bward
Junior Strategist
Posts: 184
|
Post by bward on Jan 25, 2018 13:47:37 GMT
This is all assume they are required to be one-shot from 100% to 0. So yes, the math looks very scary. Boosted pow 14s still have a reasonable chance of dealing damage. That's not scary. The issue becomes dealing 3 damage and them healing 2. Rapid healing is just dumb. I don't think it's worth the balance conundrum it's creating. It causes them to have far more "effective" hit points than any one unit should have. But they have already said that RH will not go away, end of subject. So as unbelievably stupid as it is, they need to have less armor because of the 4-5 casters in our entire stable that can actually buff their armor. They are literally one of the biggest releases of this CiD and I hate them and everything they stand for. "We're anti-shooting tech but because we can actually do that at peak performance we need to be nerfed so that we can't do that well with 80% of the casters in the faction." They could scrap the entire concept and I personally wouldn't care. Yeah, I wish Rapid Healing wasn’t a thing. At LnL they said it would be arm17/unyielding/snacking which would have been fine, but they wanted to warmongers to get unyielding instead.. so here we are. For what its worth, I think they outshine the other options in Primal Terrors... And I think they will bend but not break the meta, if anything the impact will be lessened because of the relatively small amount of Legion players and the absurd MSRP I am sure these things will come in at (Wouldn’t be surprised at $150). I apologize for my previously voiced frustrations at MacDaddy, but this CID has been a mess. I followed all the past CIDs pretty closely, I don’t post but I have submitted feedback forms, especially for this CID... and I have never seen a previous CID as actively disrupted as this one has been. People argue for nerfs because things are good, not too good (imo). Lots of people post actively defending their pet factions and just tearing Legion down for no reason other than they are trying to protect their own toys and their own favorite lists. Anamag, and Chosen, and new BB, etc. may make you consider changing your list pair if you expect to see Legion. That’s a good thing.
|
|
bward
Junior Strategist
Posts: 184
|
Post by bward on Jan 25, 2018 13:57:43 GMT
Abby 1 looks really fun with being able to have multiple mutations without spending Fury, giving a beast + 2 STR, +1SPD, Flight and Ashen Veil seems funny Yes its nice to have a caster to compete with Abby2/Fyanna 2 for running the beast brick. She comes across as a caster with a very high skill cap because of all the ways she can cycle upkeep’s around, as well as leverage Blight burst... I can see people who dedicate the time to her doing very well.
|
|
|
Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Jan 25, 2018 13:58:56 GMT
...Lots of people post actively defending their pet factions and just tearing Legion down for no reason other than they are trying to protect their own toys and their own favorite lists. Anamag, and Chosen, and new BB, etc. may make you consider changing your list pair if you expect to see Legion. That’s a good thing. I make no apologies for defending the faction I play from getting nerfed, I have almost finished painting my Storm Strider, I don't want to see it get nerfed before I play it...
|
|