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Post by ForEver_Blight on Jan 25, 2018 14:04:51 GMT
I don't mind when people disagree with me, but a lot of the salt is coming from legion players who disagree with me. EG: you adding the hyperbole quote to my quote. Kind of hypocritical don't you think? The sad part is, I don't actually diagree with the general community too much. My main opinions this cid that I have repeated over and over again: 1: Anamag does too much at once 2: Chosen are a little too durable because of rapid healing 3: The BB animus was dumb, now its just good (but still needs to be tested) 4: Thags 2 is really...really tanky right now and supports his army really well. I also have said Carniveans need a bumb, recommended rotwings get a bump, recomended BB bufs before his animus change. That +1 speed and cmd? I recommend that week one. You and some other people on here can get all salty with me. Can throw some snide punches my way, but at the end of the day all your doing is showing that as much as you "want to have a reasonable discussion" you get just as salty when someone says something you don't like. Its like what I said in the Bias thread in the legion sub forum. Everyone wears tinted glasses, and we are messing with other peoples toy soldiers here. Bias + personal connection to the topic tends to make arguments much more heated than they probably should be. hook. line. sinker. You're clearly are still in the mindset that Legion players are all just wrong. You immediately discounted all of us by claiming "faction bias" in your very first thread on the board. You're not here to help, you're barely here to provide feed back. You're only goal is to prove your opinion right over everyone else, community and PP. I don't care if you happened to agree with one thing or the other. Even a broken clock is right twice a day.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Jan 25, 2018 14:15:18 GMT
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Post by macdaddy on Jan 25, 2018 14:17:33 GMT
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Post by oncomingstorm on Jan 25, 2018 18:36:15 GMT
Can't wait until Circle gets a CID, and the Storm Raptor drops 6 points, gains an Armor, a MAT, ROF 2, and a useful animus. Seriously, I think they need to take a step back and look at what they're creating with the BB. the BE CID shows that PP sometimes has trouble balancing these splashy centerpiece models. Oncomingstorm - I accept and support the idea. Why would you not want them to take one of the WORST garg in the game and actually make it a compelling choice? I can only hope that the Raptor gets some updates. Blightbringer was the worst, slowest, tied for least accurate, egregious Garg in the game. Not a single soul gave a damn about it's existence until now. Why? Because in order to try and make a 38 point support model viable, PP took clearly outrageous strides. Everyone has gone out of their minds when CiD models drop with clear over powered BS. It's about dialing it back. Test it, properly, provide feed back. Keep the freaking salt to a minimum. If you don't like people disagreeing with you, you have the ability to not post on the forum. You can participate without getting all worked up and having arguments on the internet over toy soldiers. No one is claiming the BB didn't deserve buffs. I was very much on board with buffs, and had suggested it receive increased CMD, increased speed, and/or a MAT increase well before the start of CID. The fact that the BB was not a good model before these buffs does not mean that it cannot become overpowered after they have been applied - the buffs it has received are massive. I've only played two games with the legion CID (we have literally one legion player in my meta), but my impression was that the BB was broken as Firetruck with the old animus, and that it was 100% fine as of the last week's update. Stacking additional buffs on top of that is...questionable. Similarly, looking at the BE CID, it's impossible to argue that PP doesn't have trouble balancing large, centerpiece models. a good 4-5 of the BEs came out of CID over the curve, some of them WELL over the curve. Seriously, man. You're getting up there with Octavius is terms of blinkered faction bias. Dial it back.
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Post by mydnight on Jan 25, 2018 19:04:42 GMT
This is all assume they are required to be one-shot from 100% to 0. So yes, the math looks very scary. Boosted pow 14s still have a reasonable chance of dealing damage. That's not scary. The issue becomes dealing 3 damage and them healing 2. Rapid healing is just dumb. I don't think it's worth the balance conundrum it's creating. It causes them to have far more "effective" hit points than any one unit should have. But they have already said that RH will not go away, end of subject. So as unbelievably stupid as it is, they need to have less armor because of the 4-5 casters in our entire stable that can actually buff their armor. They are literally one of the biggest releases of this CiD and I hate them and everything they stand for. "We're anti-shooting tech but because we can actually do that at peak performance we need to be nerfed so that we can't do that well with 80% of the casters in the faction." They could scrap the entire concept and I personally wouldn't care. Actually with an arm buff caster boosted pwr 14s are on average likely to do 3 damage heal 2. Which means they become pretty much impervious to shooting except against something like nemo3 or caine3. So I don't know what legion players were smoking except making arguments that hey they won't always be having arm 21 ... which is ironic when the claim is that they should stand up to something like nemo3 etc. And you're right this unit is extremely difficult to balance and the final outcome will tell us about PP's vision for the 'future'. I would have gone with arm 18 hyper regen instead.
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Post by chillychinaman on Jan 25, 2018 19:51:47 GMT
Just to bring it up, would people be okay with Chosen durability if they had little to no offensive presence?
The pessimist in me says no because even if they were weak, Anamag+BB would be brought up as a way to bring them up to at least passable damage.
Is there a unit in the game who's sole purpose is to soak up as much damage as possible? Nothing comes to mind, but I'm not the most active nor experienced player.
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doopsie
Junior Strategist
Posts: 341
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Post by doopsie on Jan 25, 2018 19:53:42 GMT
Just to bring it up, would people be okay with Chosen durability if they had little to no offensive presence? The pessimist in me says no because even if they were weak, Anamag+BB would be brought up as a way to bring them up to at least passable damage. Is there a unit in the game who's sole purpose is to soak up as much damage as possible? Nothing comes to mind, but I'm not the most active nor experienced player. Bastions. And they suck, mostly because they can't actually soak up that much. I THINK I'd be ok with that, but would have to see what exactly "little to no offensive presence" is.
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bundeez
Junior Strategist
Posts: 325
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Post by bundeez on Jan 25, 2018 20:11:57 GMT
Trollblood Warders as well.
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Post by chillychinaman on Jan 25, 2018 20:12:40 GMT
I THINK I'd be ok with that, but would have to see what exactly "little to no offensive presence" is. I was initially thinking two PS13s, but with Anamag+BB that still allows for PS19s on feat turn which I'm sure would be viewed as still too high. Personally I'd like to see a single PS~12 mount attack with bulldoze and linebreaker, but I think that too much of a shift from what they currently are, in addition to needing different scuplts.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Jan 25, 2018 20:13:33 GMT
I THINK I'd be ok with that, but would have to see what exactly "little to no offensive presence" is. I was initially thinking two PS13s, but with Anamag+BB that still allows for PS19s on feat turn which I'm sure would be viewed as still too high. Personally I'd like to see a single PS~12 mount attack with bulldoze and linebreaker, but I think that too much of a shift from what they currently are, in addition to needing different scuplts. That would be fine by me...
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Post by macdaddy on Jan 25, 2018 20:16:20 GMT
I THINK I'd be ok with that, but would have to see what exactly "little to no offensive presence" is. I was initially thinking two PS13s, but with Anamag+BB that still allows for PS19s on feat turn which I'm sure would be viewed as still too high. Personally I'd like to see a single PS~12 mount attack with bulldoze and linebreaker, but I think that too much of a shift from what they currently are, in addition to needing different scuplts. I think that is an issue with anamag though, not the chosen. I have been trying to bring that to light for the past couple weeks now. I was thinking P+S 12 on the polearm with brutal charge and maybe drop the mount pow by 1. Just to make them "tougher long riders that don't hit as hard"
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Post by chillychinaman on Jan 25, 2018 20:22:21 GMT
I was initially thinking two PS13s, but with Anamag+BB that still allows for PS19s on feat turn which I'm sure would be viewed as still too high. Personally I'd like to see a single PS~12 mount attack with bulldoze and linebreaker, but I think that too much of a shift from what they currently are, in addition to needing different scuplts. That would be fine by me... Option 1 or 2? I was initially thinking two PS13s, but with Anamag+BB that still allows for PS19s on feat turn which I'm sure would be viewed as still too high. Personally I'd like to see a single PS~12 mount attack with bulldoze and linebreaker, but I think that too much of a shift from what they currently are, in addition to needing different scuplts. I think that is an issue with anamag though, not the chosen. I have been trying to bring that to light for the past couple weeks now. I was thinking P+S 12 on the polearm with brutal charge and maybe drop the mount pow by 1. Just to make them "tougher long riders that don't hit as hard" For the record, I was intending for a PS12 Polearm w/o Brutal Charge and a POW12 mount, probably without critical knockdown. I agree with your sentiment though.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Jan 25, 2018 20:36:35 GMT
No one is claiming the BB didn't deserve buffs. I was very much on board with buffs, and had suggested it receive increased CMD, increased speed, and/or a MAT increase well before the start of CID. The fact that the BB was not a good model before these buffs does not mean that it cannot become overpowered after they have been applied - the buffs it has received are massive. I've only played two games with the legion CID (we have literally one legion player in my meta), but my impression was that the BB was broken as Firetruck with the old animus, and that it was 100% fine as of the last week's update. Stacking additional buffs on top of that is...questionable. Similarly, looking at the BE CID, it's impossible to argue that PP doesn't have trouble balancing large, centerpiece models. a good 4-5 of the BEs came out of CID over the curve, some of them WELL over the curve. Seriously, man. You're getting up there with Octavius is terms of blinkered faction bias. Dial it back. Again, we're not arguing different points at all. CMD 6 this week doesn't need to stay. Using the BE CiD as proof again leaves us with Storm striders and AF-Cricket on one side and Meat threshers on another. I don't want either to be the case with the BB. I'm actually quite happy with the ArchAngel. That said I'm going to apologize for getting up in arms. I didn't think I was being that bad... But there is a lot at stake and I'm not seeing anything good come out of it. I hate ALL of the new models in the CiD except for Golab. None of it is balanced and none of it is easy to balance therefore is has a high chance of being f'd up in one way or the other. Rapid healing being a staple to the chosen design is ruining them. Sitting Vulture is a stupid freaking mechanic for the grotesque-wannabes. Ammok is either a complete waste 90% of the time or absolutely back breaking when one of his rules actually applies. Anamag is stupid is every different direction. I'm also extremely tired of the theory-machine. The "you can't have nice things unless we get nice things" (actual comment but paraphrased). The "this is so broken with these rules" when those rules are not actually the correct ones. And on and on and on. I'm advocating for things to get toned down, just like they want, and I still can't get these people to calm down and relate. It's impossible... This CiD is a flop. The existing models that were brought in are doing well. I will give it that. If people can understand that Thagrosh 2 isn't some auto-win just because he can have a respectable arm stat.... Still, put Dragon's blood back the way it was. The BB has been all over the place but is still a one-theme-wonder. I don't like most of the changes. I don't think it helps it do anything outside of babysit sub-par Ogrun models. It can't carry any weight outside of that one theme. And people are screaming for nerfs still. I get it people play against something and the other person does "too" well; it seems the model needs a turn down. But try playing that list yourself. It's a LOT to manage with very limited strategic wiggle room. Positioning is terrible to have to crowd around a single model that is likely only going to trundle up the very center of the board. It's as bland and brain dead. I don't care for it at all.
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Post by welshhoppo on Jan 25, 2018 20:53:02 GMT
I'm going to go out on a limb here and blame Cygnar for this CiD.
Well, not Cygnar in general, but a certain Cygnaran Warcaster that looks a little bit like Albert Einstein.
That is Nemo3!
The problem is that Legion struggles into Cygnar gunlines, particular Nemo3's gunline, because of issues with the additional damage pow12 electroleaps. Now, what the problem is that Legion players want to have a list to hand that counters Nemo3.
But that's the problem, Nemo3 is above the curve in terms of firepower, I've seen him neuter entire Khador Jackspam lines under his feat turn, he hits too damn hard.
Now, when you're looking for a list with game, a lot of people seem to get confused. For example, Khador jack spam 'has good game' into a Cygnar Trencher leaf blower gun line. I.E the ones with a bunch of pow10. Now, what this doesn't mean is that at the start of the match the Cygnar players looks at me, knowing he has been defeated before rolling up the white flag and walks away, giving me access to his models, bank account and wife. But it means that its an uphill battle for him.
Now the biggest issue with chosen, is the rapid healing ability and it needs to be changed. Either get rid of the bloody thing, or make it happen in the maintenance phase. Because these things are literally unkillable at range into the majority of the game. As a Khador player I can't kill them at range. ARM17 at least means dice -5 on my rockets, so I need to roll 13 to get a tough check, which it may heal back up to 4 boxes. Or if I roll high, and then hit it for 1 damage point, it can actually heal back the damage again.
I say ARM17 at least because the BB is actually too good in this list to not take, and seeing as you can run and spew ash, the Chosen will be at least ARM19. With a few other buffs they can be easily have 20+ armour.
Now a lot of moaning on their 'survivablilty' seems to come from people not using them right. Put these things in a zone, Hellmouth in toe with a Blightbringer behind them and how do you remove them? The Mouth has a longer range than most jacks, so it will pull one in and the Chosen will shred it. You can't shoot them to death, and grevious wounds is a terrible counter, seeing as the only models in Khador with it are a 6 point merc solo, or Assault Kommandos.
Now look, I know people are looking to counter Nemo3, but if you successful counter his attacking power then you are so far up the curve that you're basically starting a power creep. And that never ends well.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Jan 25, 2018 20:54:00 GMT
I'm going to go out on a limb here and blame Cygnar for this CiD. Well, not Cygnar in general, but a certain Cygnaran Warcaster that looks a little bit like Albert Einstein. That is Nemo3! The problem is that Legion struggles into Cygnar gunlines, particular Nemo3's gunline, because of issues with the additional damage pow12 electroleaps. Now, what the problem is that Legion players want to have a list to hand that counters Nemo3.
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