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Post by albertairish on Feb 2, 2018 22:25:14 GMT
Chosen honestly seem like the dry toast of heavy cavalry. Yeah, they can get around, and take a hit, and hit decently hard, but they don't do anything interesting on the field. They can't jump like Ferox, slam like Long Riders, or shoot like Storm Lances.
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thelat
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Cid
Feb 2, 2018 22:35:37 GMT
Post by thelat on Feb 2, 2018 22:35:37 GMT
The Chosen seem like they really solve the problem of cheap infantry swarms, which has historically been a problem for us.
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Post by davycannonhound on Feb 2, 2018 22:37:06 GMT
I agree that lance rule should be improved. But I don't think that should be the baseline of what Chosen should be. Other than the issue with lance rule these units are all very very good. The Longriders only having -1 pow isn't really proving to me that the Chosen are as severely out of whack as you're saying. The Bane riders are less survivable individually, but faster with Vengeance, and more maneuverable with Ghostly. Ferox are also very good, very maneuverable, and when they have their dragoon around, they get to dodge. The fact is that these models all have a powerful niche that fits within their factions. Chosen do too with their current stats. 2: Ghostly and vengeance is great, for sure they out threat by a few inches. I did say bane riders are very close in power level (arguably best in the game until chosen drop) The issue is even though they are faster, I don't think the maneuverability is enough to make up for how durable chosen are in comparison. Overall, I think ghostly is really good, but its not enough to make them better or on par with chosen's well rounded toolkit in my personal opinion. Chosen may not out threaten most things, but they are tanky enough to be shoved into a spot and say "come at me bro" and survive what hits them (unless its a fully kitted out heavy jack/beast or high pow weapon-master infantry) Basically if you were to face off a double chosen brick into a double bane rider brick I think (outside of skarre 1 feat) chosen are at an advantage. Like I said, its a close comparison here but I think the tanky-ness of chosen wins out here. I just want to point out that Ghostly is far superior to the Chosen's pathfinder. Immunity to free strikes and moving through obstructions/obstacles is great. That alone makes a brick "deal with me" somewhat of a moot point, due to possible gameplay tactics of "You're here? Cool. I'm gonna go over here now, have fun."
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Lanz
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Lanz on Feb 2, 2018 22:40:10 GMT
The Chosen seem like they really solve the problem of cheap infantry swarms, which has historically been a problem for us. It's SUPPOSED to be the warmongers' job >.> I guess Gorag gives warmongers some insurance to be relevant. Shame warspears didn't get the same treatment.
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danx
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Cid
Feb 2, 2018 23:30:10 GMT
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Post by danx on Feb 2, 2018 23:30:10 GMT
Seems to me, all the other cav have tricks.
Slams. Charging though obstructions past free strikes. Electroleaps/shooting.
Chosen get being very tough. If they are not more durable in some way than the trollkin cav, then they are missing a trick.
I believe the non-caster buffs that Chosen can receive are:
Warmonger Warchief Blightbringer Truth bearer gives them rise...
The troll non caster buffs seem far more relevant.
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danx
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Feb 2, 2018 23:48:34 GMT
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Post by danx on Feb 2, 2018 23:48:34 GMT
Seems to me, all the other cav have tricks.
Slams. Charging though obstructions past free strikes. Electroleaps/shooting.
Chosen get being very tough. If they are not more durable in some way than the trollkin cav, then they are missing a trick.
I believe the non-caster buffs that Chosen can receive are:
Warmonger Warchief Blightbringer Truth bearer gives them rise...
The troll non caster buffs seem far more relevant.
For starters they get buffed by the two themes they can be taken in, so either they gain remove from play or immune to cold.
They can be buffed in band of hero: Stone scribe chroncaler Horthol Fell caller Stone unit and UA
The buffs that these things hand out are very extensive.
Plus 2 to hit, or pathfinder. Plus 2 hit and damage beast like.gang fighter or concealment and feign death. +2 arm and +1 str Boosted impact attacks.
Compared to blight bringer, plus 1 to hit, blood drinker and rise.
Also if you look at what casters in trolls do to these guys compare to legion options, the troll guys get can't be shot, charged or healed from various infantry support. Legion get.. plus 3 arm or plus str or darkshroud an extra attack with a place, an extra d6 to hit.
Flank warbeasts is pretty strong for them I guess. But troll caster support does seem stronger for long riders.
I'd also not that alot of our plus str buffs do not go on mount attacks. Which makes warspears take these buffs better for more damage.
I really think chosen need to be extremely tanky and high on the curve or they will not see table time.
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Cid
Feb 3, 2018 3:30:37 GMT
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Post by macdaddy on Feb 3, 2018 3:30:37 GMT
copperflame I think that Legion beasts needed cost reductions, abby1 certainly needed work as did thags 2. But they all seem To be in good places now. I think Warmongers needed some reason to take more than one unit. Rooteneye being a character UA was...dumb. If you could take 2 Units with UA’s I think warmongers would be in a better place. Rotwings never got the attention they needed. I was really hoping to see something unique out of them. Even if it was just a points reduction or advanced deploy. I feel like they were a missed opportunity. albertairish I gues, you could say that. But some counterpoints here: long riders almost never slam I think I’ve seen them slam once in all of MK3 it’s almost always better to charge. The storm lance gun is...not what it used to be. Range 8 and only Pow 12 with no leaps at Rat 5 isn’t exactly impressive. Chosen have rapid Healing a unique and potent defensive ability. Sure they may not have super creative or janky rules. But I wouldn’t call them dry toast. Just toast with good old plain butter on top, instead of some fancy jam. davycannonhound Ghostly is great don’t get my wrong. In fact it’s bonkers at times. But I feel like chosens raw durability more than compensated for any difference in maneuverability there is there. It also comes up more often than ghostly’s other aspects. Most of the time, the biggest part of gostly for me, is walking through obstructions. Not saying it’s not good, I just still think chosen more than make up for the extra shenanigans Ghostly gives in the compatrison. danx whew you got a long one there...gonna be hard to respond on my phone but I’ll try my best! 1: The Gun And e leaps on lances is...not what it used to be. It’s cool and all, but not as significant. Long rider slams are...not very often used. Ghostly is a good point. But consider the lack of durability Bane riders have in comparison. It’s at a threat range vs Durability argument there and that’s a whole other animal. 2: Troll non caster buffs are cool, but remember, to even really be comparable, long riders NEED the Stone. Otherwise chosen are just flat more durable base. Because rapid healing is better than +1 Arm. You also need to pay 5+ points individually for all those support options. I also think your being a little desengeneuos here on how legion can support chosen I went over this in CiD. Comparing Troll caster support for long riders and legion caster support for chosen. Trolls: Horgle2: Feat and inviolable resolve Grissel1: Fell calls and potentially calamity (though she doesn’t cast it often) Madrack 2: Weaponmaster Spell Borka 1: Feat for delivery and Arcane ward Madrack 1: Even Ground Grim1: Accuracy buff and delivery feat! Other casters don’t run them as well IMO. I might be missing something but those are the big ones. War room isn’t working -__- Legion: Thags1: Arm And Strength Buff just what they want! Anamag: nuff said, buffs everything Kallus 1 And 2: Damage buff and K2 gives them a delivery feat as well. K1 gives a good accuracy buff! Ryhas: Dash, Stealth, And a cool delivery/ish feat Vayl1: Not sure here but incite in PT and her feat seem really good for jamming and or getting out of dodge after you strike hard. So I think the level support in faction is actually pretty similar. Even if you drop Vayl, the rest of those caster can run chisen very well. Sure trolls can take more Support solos, but by the time you pay all the points for the Kriel Stone, UA, Fell caller, and Hortholl you’ve payed about 25 points in support! Sure horgholl is a solid combat solo, but 8 points is steep. At least the B.B. eats into WB points! And he has the combat out it of a gargantuan! Overall I still think chosen win out in the long rider comparison.
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danx
Junior Strategist
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Post by danx on Feb 3, 2018 8:25:20 GMT
I think we will have to disagree. The troll support options of long riders, are in my opinion more powerful.and flexible than the chosen. For example the stone aura is far easier to apply than blight bringer, and with the stone aura the long riders have arm 20, compared to arm 17.
Sure of you bring an arm buff caster in legion and brickup around your blightbringer Choosen are tougher. I think you will loose most senerio then though.
The unit str buffs are very bad on chosen. Buffing them to ps17 on the charge,. And not buffing their mount attack is extremely wasteful.
Thag1 doesn't like to bring the blightbringer, so chosen will like.fog of war from him. I don't think they will want to be close to him though to take advantage of their speed. And that debuff doesn't work Vs guns anyway.
Vayl1 might actually.be good with them. I think Kryssa will be too.
The long riders can get no more than arm 20 but I don't imagine them being in a list where they are not that. They might leave that bubble sometimes though. Choosen outside of the arm buff caster (annamag and fyanna are the only ones they will be great with) will generally.be their base armour.
The buffs long riders have access to,.
Immune cold Take down
Concealment, feign death, +2 hit and damage, boosted impact attacks
Are amazingly stronger buffs for very few points that provide other great options.
Re you keep saying the storm Lance's gun is no good,. But it gives them several strong options, and makes them.very good at clearing out infantry swarm. It's not unreasonable for them to threaten 5 models, compared to Choosen threatening 3. (2 impacts, 1 melee Vs the same plus assult and electroleap).
I also find it difficult.to understand why of choosen were 12/16 it's not obvious that they are just worse than long riders? It is to me.
1) at least as good support from Trollkin 2) plus 2 arm is better than rapid healing 3) slamming wins games.
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Post by maximumhippo on Feb 3, 2018 11:05:15 GMT
The Chosen seem like they really solve the problem of cheap infantry swarms, which has historically been a problem for us. This is exactly the opposite of my experience. I had chosen bogged down by WGI because they couldn't generate enough attacks between the number of bodies and tough. I feel like counter dudespam is still the niche of the warmonger, assuming they can get enough MAT buffs for things like satyxis.
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Cid
Feb 3, 2018 13:23:41 GMT
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Post by macdaddy on Feb 3, 2018 13:23:41 GMT
danxSee the thing is, the B.B. CMD range change means you can fit a full unit within you don’t have to go completeley within. Sure you brick up, but you can use warmongers on a flank to contest a zone. IME the only scenario that really punishes you for bricking up, is spread the net. The rest of them you can clump and push up the board. Having said that, I’m not going to sit here and say 2 chosen Units will be Arm 21 all the time. But a single unit with a B.B. should be at least on the approach. And with an arm buff caster you can have 2 Units at Arm 19 which is where I think they start to get into that “heavy only” threshold for things that can reliably remove them. No the strength buffs are not bad. And casters with an arm Debuff, incite, ignite, or battle list (which you have) Increase the mount Pow as well. Pow 17 isn’t that great sure but Pow 15 Weaponmaster is, Pow 17 And Pow 16 on the mount is. And if you can add the B.B. buff that goes up another 2 Pow on the halberd. The Kriel stone for long riders gives a strength buff, and Troll players don’t say it’s bad. They love it. Really it’s only madrack 1 and Grissel 1 That Apply a non Feat offensive buff. Chosen get more damage buff options in faction. Long riders get more defensive tech. That does not mean trolls win out here. I think chosen are very well supported by the casters that will want to run them in PT. Ok then don’t bring a B.B. with thags1. You’ll still get an arm 19 Pow 17 chosen on the charge. Pow 17’s are good. Even without the mount buff. Long riders only really get to P+S 16 with the mount unaffected. So chosen still hit harder overall while maintaining similar Tanky ness. Also like chosen if you run 2 units of long riders, you will only really be able to fit 1 unit in the stone aura unless you really brick up. So I think this compares here to the B.B. long riders tend to outpace the rest of the army and it really hampers your threat range if you want to still apply the Str or Spd buff from the stone. The kreilstone is like the B.B. in that respect. But with the B.B. you end up paying an extra 20 points for a gargantuan that can kill a heavy, act and an achor, And has an infantry denial animus. I actually think your basically getting a aura buff for 10 or 12 points, and a heavy with extra boxes and a gun for 20 points. The B.B. is in a good place now. I think it’s the centerpiece if PT. Theme benefits are great for sure, I won’t deny you there. But consider, if Chosen had Vengence from Theme, why on the world would you ever take anything other than double chosen? Charge of the trolls almost never goes off. Like ever. It requires a Troll Beast with reach typically (anywhere from 10-17 points for non character) a solo, and an enemy model big enough to get your unit around AFTER sending in a large or medium based Beast...it’s very rare I ever see it work. In fact I’ve only seen it go off once in all of MK3. Also consider, the Long riders need to pay in Solos what the chosen get natively. You need to pay 5 points for pathfinder, but chosen already have that. You need to pay 8 points for hortholl and that’s steep. If you pay for a stone with UA and a Fell caller, (17 points in support and only 15 less than a B.B. who can go into WB points.) the stone Buff makes long riders about as tough as chosen. Rapid healing making chosen effectiveley 1 less arm but more immune to infantry attacks. So even after buying 17 points of support long riders are just...equivalent? See the problem here? Believe it or not it’s hard to drop 5 or so points on a solo when you need 1 Fell caller or chronicler per unit. You’ll typically only see 2 free Fell callers in Band of Heroes and either a Free Stone UA or a Unit UA. So those buffs are not nearly as available as you think. Unless you really bloat support into a single unit. If your opponent lets you kill 5 models with a single lance then they need to spread out more. 1/2” Melee means 2 impacts are...not likely to happen. It’s more likely to kill 3 models with them unless fighting lighter infantry. Also...Rat 5... Go back and read the CiD. I openly said Arm 16 was NOT the solution. Made them too easy to kill at range. I still think they need a Pow reduction on the mount and/or halberd. They are the tankiest Cav in the game right now which is fine. But they also hit as hard as, and move about as well as or better than all the over Cav too thanks to most casters getting them to Pow 17, having a naturally good pow mount attack, And them having Native pathfinder. Your final thoughts: 1) here we seem to almost agree. I think legion supports chosen as well as trolls supports long riders overall. Especially once you get into the minutia of paying for troll support. 2) Not really. Rapid healing is really good against anything unboosted Pow 14 or less (assuming arm 17) and Boosted Pow 13 or less. If chosen are Arm 19 those numbers become. Unboosted Pow 16 or less, And Boosted Pow 15. There’s not that many Boosted Pow 16’s in the game at range. And most infantry don’t pack that. The +2 arm really is only better when facing an attack that exceeds Pow 17. And remember, long riders are only +1 Arm Over chosen base. So really it’s even less significant. Mathematically and In table play, rapid healing means chip damage is almost meaningless against chosen. 3) sure it does. Sometimes. In very specific situations. I’m telling you, slams don’t come up in the table nearly as much as you’d think they would...
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Post by snotling on Feb 3, 2018 20:19:31 GMT
The Chosen seem like they really solve the problem of cheap infantry swarms, which has historically been a problem for us. To be fair, thrones solve that problem better than any other model. And they do it so well, nobody dropps infantryspams against me anymore.
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Post by cainuslupus on Feb 4, 2018 14:54:09 GMT
How nice to see the baseless theorycrafting that the actual playtesting disagreed with is still going strong. Well, there was whole campaign that seemingly fail to nerf Chosen. I've lost interest halfway when it became obvious who main actors are. One guy believing that no Cav should be better than Long Riders ever and few other minor ones. Other than that it's rather bland theme with little model choices, but might be relevant.
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Post by copperflame on Feb 5, 2018 16:03:12 GMT
I agree with these points. Thanks for sharing!
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Post by chillychinaman on Feb 5, 2018 20:09:25 GMT
What's up with Legion having so many FA:C CAs? I'd be a lot less upset if their abilities were Elite Cadre rather than Granted/Tactics. No one's running Legionnaires currently, but did anyone ever run a 2nd unit of Hex Hunters in Mk3?
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Post by macdaddy on Feb 5, 2018 20:24:11 GMT
What's up with Legion having so many FA:C CAs? I'd be a lot less upset if their abilities were Elite Cadre rather than Granted/Tactics. No one's running Legionnaires currently, but did anyone ever run a 2nd unit of Hex Hunters in Mk3? In general for units with more than FA1, I think having character CA's is stupid. to my knowledge every unit in the game wants or needs its CA to work properly. Warmongers are an example of this. The ca literally completes them. But you can only take one of it because..fluff? IMO there should be no character CA's for units with an FA greater than 1. Otherwise, there literally 0 point in having a larger FA.
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