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Cid
Feb 2, 2018 4:44:35 GMT
Post by oncomingstorm on Feb 2, 2018 4:44:35 GMT
As for unique things Chosen have going for them...They have rapid healing, yes (which is amazing), 8 boxes (directly synergizes with rapid healing and high arm), tough, and native pathfinder. That's way more than just rapid healing. I always hear people bring up pathfinder on the Chosen. Is there a Cav that DOESN'T have pathfinder out there? I'm pretty sure thats just the Cavalry standard. I feel like Rapid healing is only good BECAUSE of the high armor and boxes. Tough is kinda whatever. Really not that reliable. I will say, I saw absolutely no point in them gaining a point of defense. I thought they were fine where they were when they originally released. If you're worried about offensive output on them, take away brutal charge I guess (and possibly make it a flat 14?). Or lower their mount by a point or something. Pathfinder is definitely not standard for heavy cav, especially all-purpose pathfinder. I think only Bane Riders, Ferox, and now Chosen get it standard, and Uhlans get relentless charge (useful, but less useful when moving up the field). Considering my #1 suggestion was that the mount and weapon lose a point of POW, I'd be 100% fine with that change.
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Lanz
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Cid
Feb 2, 2018 4:52:47 GMT
Post by Lanz on Feb 2, 2018 4:52:47 GMT
Pathfinder is definitely not normal for heavy cav. Ferox and Banes have it easy; Uhlans only get it on the charge. Storm lances, steelheads, tuffalo, destors, & vengers (only if your opponent allows), or 5/8 heavy cav units in the game struggle with pathfinder. It's basically universal among light cav (though that's not a distinction anymore); soulhunters are the one skirmishing cav unit without it native. I wonder why those factions don't take Rhupert anymore, anyways? I guess because Tough isn't as good as it used to be. With theme lists open to a merc slot now, if Cygnar Protectorate and Mercs want pathfinder, they can have it.
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Cid
Feb 2, 2018 5:04:55 GMT
Post by oncomingstorm on Feb 2, 2018 5:04:55 GMT
Pathfinder is definitely not normal for heavy cav. Ferox and Banes have it easy; Uhlans only get it on the charge. Storm lances, steelheads, tuffalo, destors, & vengers (only if your opponent allows), or 5/8 heavy cav units in the game struggle with pathfinder. It's basically universal among light cav (though that's not a distinction anymore); soulhunters are the one skirmishing cav unit without it native. I wonder why those factions don't take Rhupert anymore, anyways? I guess because Tough isn't as good as it used to be. With theme lists open to a merc slot now, if Cygnar Protectorate and Mercs want pathfinder, they can have it. A SINGLE merc solo slot. Often that goes to Ragman, or Eilish, or Lanyssa, or a specific tech piece. Even if you do take Rhupert, that's 4 points to give a unit something Chosen get included, from a model that can be removed to deprive you of that ability.
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Lanz
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Lanz on Feb 2, 2018 6:15:49 GMT
So it's important enough to talk about, but not important enough to take a solo for.
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Cid
Feb 2, 2018 6:29:30 GMT
Post by oncomingstorm on Feb 2, 2018 6:29:30 GMT
So it's important enough to talk about, but not important enough to take a solo for. No. There are competing priorities that may be more important, and may edge out the need to take a pathfinder granting solo. Doesn't change the fact that Chosen have the innate advantage of pathfinder, that they don't have to pay 4 points extra for it, and that they can't have the ability removed by killing said solo (which at the very least makes me more cautious about sticking non-pathfinder troops in concealment-or-cover granting difficult terrain, which the Chosen can use at will).
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Post by gobber on Feb 2, 2018 6:34:18 GMT
Somewhere about there. It's a powerful ability, the factions all have options to get it, but it's usually worthwhile to just play around it. Ret has a slightly harder time of it. Mercs really aren't worried at all, with easy access to rhupert if needed in in irregulars, pathfinder everything in llael, and "roflmao drown on my trenchers" working regardless of pathfinder over in kingmaker.
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Post by davycannonhound on Feb 2, 2018 6:55:19 GMT
I always hear people bring up pathfinder on the Chosen. Is there a Cav that DOESN'T have pathfinder out there? I'm pretty sure thats just the Cavalry standard. I feel like Rapid healing is only good BECAUSE of the high armor and boxes. Tough is kinda whatever. Really not that reliable. I will say, I saw absolutely no point in them gaining a point of defense. I thought they were fine where they were when they originally released. If you're worried about offensive output on them, take away brutal charge I guess (and possibly make it a flat 14?). Or lower their mount by a point or something. Considering my #1 suggestion was that the mount and weapon lose a point of POW, I'd be 100% fine with that change. I can't say I disagree. I honestly think I'd rather their weapon be a straight POW 14 over a brutal charge 13. It doesn't make sense that these massive ogrun monsters somehow hit softer than their normal ogrun counterparts (warmongers). As for the mount, I feel its circumstantial enough to not really matter one way or another. As for the point on Pathfinder, I feel like thats going to stay for fluff reasons. Normal Ogrun don't have it (except through a mini-feat or relentless charge), but the Chosen are blighted up and all dragony. So, yeah. I'm honestly not sure how much a difference it really makes though, as most factions have speed buffs galore and ways to ignore terrain through handing out forms of pathfinder and maybe even flight (don't quote me on that). You also have to consider that the relatively high speed of the Chosen and their Pathfinder being balanced out by the rest of the army being slow as dirt (aside from the Rotwings, but they're 13/11 defensive stats, so... Yeah. Fragile enough to warrant their own separate discussion, really). Also that statement obviously doesn't extend to warbeasts as much, but you're likely to not bring too many warbeasts in a Primal Terrors army to begin with...
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Post by oncomingstorm on Feb 2, 2018 7:10:59 GMT
Considering my #1 suggestion was that the mount and weapon lose a point of POW, I'd be 100% fine with that change. I can't say I disagree. I honestly think I'd rather their weapon be a straight POW 14 over a brutal charge 13. It doesn't make sense that these massive ogrun monsters somehow hit softer than their normal ogrun counterparts (warmongers). As for the mount, I feel its circumstantial enough to not really matter one way or another. As for the point on Pathfinder, I feel like thats going to stay for fluff reasons. Normal Ogrun don't have it (except through a mini-feat or relentless charge), but the Chosen are blighted up and all dragony. So, yeah. I'm honestly not sure how much a difference it really makes though, as most factions have speed buffs galore and ways to ignore terrain through handing out forms of pathfinder and maybe even flight (don't quote me on that). You also have to consider that the relatively high speed of the Chosen and their Pathfinder being balanced out by the rest of the army being slow as dirt (aside from the Rotwings, but they're 13/11 defensive stats, so... Yeah. Fragile enough to warrant their own separate discussion, really). Also that statement obviously doesn't extend to warbeasts as much, but you're likely to not bring too many warbeasts in a Primal Terrors army to begin with... I'd be completely fine with P+S 14, no brutal charge, and a POW 13 mount attack. Same output on turns they're not charging, but without the same alpha potential. Encourages you to jam with them, or use them to absorb the alpha then punch back, which is more their role anyways. As for pathfinder, I don't doubt it'll stay, and have no problem with it staying. I'm just damn sick of people discounting it as an advantage and a piece of 'flexibility' Chosen have that other Cavalry don't.
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unded
Junior Strategist
Posts: 760
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Post by unded on Feb 2, 2018 7:33:01 GMT
I'd be very surprised to see pathfinder go away.
Remember that Legion has only two casters that can hand out pathfinder to a unit, (Rhyas2 and Vayl2), and Vayl2 only hands it out to one model per casting. Add to that Legion has no access to Mercs / Minions that give pathfinder to units (moan all you want that you find other tech more important, other factions have the option...), and without pathfinder on the unit (a unit PP explicitly said needs to be self-sufficient) would often find itself crippled by terrain without pathfinder.
-und_ed
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Cid
Feb 2, 2018 12:22:45 GMT
via mobile
Post by macdaddy on Feb 2, 2018 12:22:45 GMT
So it's important enough to talk about, but not important enough to take a solo for. It depends on the match up, the caster, and the list. In protectorate, especially in Exemplar interdiction you really hurt without it. So that’s why most good EI lists are under Vindictus who hand out pathfinder like candy, or testament who gives incorporeal on his Feat Turn. Typically if not that you see, a good number of EI lists taking Ellias gade, who hand oh pathfinder while models are in his cmd range: It’s a very important ability to have but particularly in protectorate, the reason you don’t see rhupert as much, is because the caster running EI gives it out anyway. But my issue isn’t with them having pathfinder. Other than the fact that it’s another ability on thier are that prop them up over other Cav options in game. It’s the conglomeration of abilities on the unit that’s the problem. Too much going on at once. Something has to give.
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Post by krigsol on Feb 2, 2018 14:56:21 GMT
As for pathfinder, I don't doubt it'll stay, and have no problem with it staying. I'm just damn sick of people discounting it as an advantage and a piece of 'flexibility' Chosen have that other Cavalry don't. You're on a Legion forum. Taking "ignore terrain" advantages for granted is our thing. We are overprivileged in that regard.
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Post by krigsol on Feb 2, 2018 15:05:57 GMT
But my issue isn’t with them having pathfinder. Other than the fact that it’s another ability on thier are that prop them up over other Cav options in game. It’s the conglomeration of abilities on the unit that’s the problem. Too much going on at once. Something has to give. "A conglomeration of abilities" an apt description of dragonspawn. Which Chosen are intended to (half) be. That fits right in with the design philosophy of Legion.
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Cid
Feb 2, 2018 15:10:50 GMT
Post by macdaddy on Feb 2, 2018 15:10:50 GMT
But my issue isn’t with them having pathfinder. Other than the fact that it’s another ability on thier are that prop them up over other Cav options in game. It’s the conglomeration of abilities on the unit that’s the problem. Too much going on at once. Something has to give. "A conglomeration of abilities" an apt description of dragonspawn. Which Chosen are intended to (half) be. That fits right in with the design philosophy of Legion. I mean sure you can go with "well the fluff says..." argument. But for the sake of game rules, and balance, and setting precedence, I feel "being good at everything" is not something chosen need, or should have. They hit as hard as war-spears with prey, are fast, tougher than a decent number of infantry/cav in the game, and they get all terrain navigation to boot. Rules wise its a lot going on, and I just personally feel they have too many "toppings" for the price you pay.
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Post by krigsol on Feb 2, 2018 16:00:17 GMT
I'm not talking about the fluff. I'm talking about the game design philosophy for dragonspawn. The Carnivenan's kit includes Assault, eyeless sight, pathfinder, and continuous fires prays. Ravagore: eyeless sight, pathfinder, arcing fire shots, scather. Scythean: eyeless sight, pathfinder, murderous, thresher. All the carnivean chassis beast have pathfinder except Typhon. Even Kallus2 has pathfinder, and he's the same "type" of half-dragonspawn as the chosen.
Then you look at the other heavy cav. Long Riders have brutal charge, tough, bullrush, follow-up. Uhlans have lances, relentless charge, steady, and wall of steel. Bane Riders have undead, brutal charge, ghostly, and vengeance. Exemplar have blessed, magical, lance, weaponmaster, battle-driven. Ferox have brutal charge, jump, pounce, pathfinder, CMA, and steady (plus dodge with Rhadeim). 4/5 of these units have some sort of access to ignoring rough terrain.
Chosen have tough, pathfinder, brutal charge, and rapid healing. A buff to survivability, a boost to charges, and a method of getting around terrain. The Chosen having that kit isn't out of line with the design philosophy for either Legion dragonspawn or heavy infantry, for the premium price at 20 points a unit, which is the same as the Long Riders, Uhlans, Exemlar, Ferox, and Bane Riders.
edit: added other cav
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Cid
Feb 2, 2018 16:22:08 GMT
Post by macdaddy on Feb 2, 2018 16:22:08 GMT
I already broke down the cav comparisons a few threads back. Lance rule alone puts the uhlans and Vengers on the back foot. Relentless charge is not as good as flat pathfinder and long riders are 1 pow less and overall less survivable to small arms fire and chip damage. Bane riders are probably the closest in power level overall, but even they lack the survive-ability and the nifty +2 pow on the mount attack (which is relevant) that chosen have native.
The legion heavies pay for their abilities in cost. They also are not very fast or survivable in the scheme of heavies and lack a lot of in faction damage buffs. And yes, I am going off the CiD costs.
Chosen don't make those sacrifices. They just get to have everything going for them at once. Why should they be the exception? My point is, when you compare them to those other cav units, their overall ability is more well rounded (excluding maybe ferox under makeda 2) All of those cav have weaknesses. Vengers need to be damaged to work at proper efficiency, Uhlans and vengers are very easily jammed due to low pow on their weapons when not charging. Long riders Are a lot closer, but chosen are better at facing down infantry that can do chip damage as they are basically immune to certain attacks below a certain pow as well already discussed. They also do not hit as hard and lack as many in faction damage buffs as chosen do. Bane riders meet the offensive and maneuverability qualities fairly well, but lack in the defensive qualities by quite a large margin.
If you actually sit down and compare the units, chosen do everything those units do and also have excellent survivability on top of that. They are better when engaging infantry, they are just as good on the charge (sometimes better depending on the mount attack relevance) they are just as good as navigating terrain and they are super durable to boot.
-1 speed has relevance I know, but I don't think its nearly as big of a deal as some people pointed out earlier. Especially considering chosen can face tank a cav charge and then grind an attrition win because of their naturally higher pow.
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