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Post by cainuslupus on Jan 5, 2018 14:54:36 GMT
CotD is very effective for attrition under pThags. If you try and trade beast for beast/jack in legion you will lose, it just doesn't work anymore. That doesn't mean you can't win on attrition, you just can't throw a Carni into a Juggernaut and hope to come out the other side alright. Creative plays are needed to be competitive. The faction can win big tournaments (http://www.discountgamesinc.com/tournaments/), as well as local steamrollers. I would argue that the skill "floor" so to speak is higher in Legion then in other factions, you can't just slam into your opponents army and missteps with expensive beasts will cost you double. However, you have more options available then the jackspam Khador lists, and it is difficult to quantify that in points paid for boxes/mat/rat. I see very broad terms thrown around so please tell me: against which list Thags1 CotD is so great on attrition. Give more specifics please because I have a feeling you're missing a mark when it comes to actually hard meta skews. I can pretty much tell you what Ossrum and Harkevitch will do with your attrition Thagrosh1 game. So tell me straight what matchups that list will cover. Also your reasoning that winning with subset of models makes them good is pretty much thrown out of the window by CiDs. People played and placed well with Blindwater before CiD, for example.
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twity
Junior Strategist
Posts: 179
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Post by twity on Jan 5, 2018 15:34:06 GMT
My pThags list is
Legion Army - 75 / 75 points
[Theme] Children of the Dragon
(Thagrosh 1) Thagrosh, Prophet of Everblight [+28]
- Azrael [21]
- Harrier [3]
- Nephilim Soldier [9]
- Typhon [24]
- Zuriel [18]
Blighted Nyss Shepherd [1]
Blighted Nyss Shepherd [1]
Craelix, Fang of Everblight [0(6)]
Spell Martyr [1]
Swamp Gobber Chef [1]
Blighted Nyss Hex Hunters (min) [9]
- Bayal, Hound of Everblight [0(6)]
Blighted Nyss Swordsmen (max) [15]
- Blighted Nyss Swordsman Abbot & Champion [0(6)]
I fiddle around with the solos, but the core stays the same. I took it to a nice sized tournament at Gigabytes cafe (Atlata GA) and played it all four rounds (Mercs Ashlynn, Skorne Makeda2 Cats, Winter Trolls Borka2, Menoth Thyra). It won every game solidly on attrition, but I did lose the third game to trolls. That, however, was after failing a good assassination run on Borka2 leaving him with 1 HP on fire under vortex of fire and him managing to get four control points in one turn for a win. The list performed very well, I just did not contest scenario enough which I think is on me. There is a video of it somewhere.
The only faction it has not run into that I think could be problematic is CoC (it also has never seen dark host Cryx). Other than that it has beaten every faction and only lost the game in round 3 vs trolls.
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eauc
Junior Strategist
Posts: 209
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Post by eauc on Jan 5, 2018 16:02:58 GMT
So to work from the bottom up. My other list right now is a fairly standard Abby2. She’s my answer to Hordes, especially grymkin/trolls. Thags into Rahn is a great matchup, I’ve played it competitively a couple times with success. You pin Thags behind the 2 huge bases and then pepper stealthed hex hunters around the thrones and Rahn has no way to pull it apart. Then just march up the field. As far as the shooting, to me it really comes down to baiting with Typhon. I just need to get him so agressive up the board that my opponent can’t afford to NOT kill him, so they dedicate the resources there instead of the Thrones and then I can get into better positioning. I play into Ret a lot just because they are prominent in my meta, and I’ve never once felt that Thags was an unflavored matchup. Other factions for sure he has awful match ups, but Ret doesn’t really do much that counters him IMO. Last steamroller I dropped him into Karchev and killed 7 khador heavies + Karchev himself, and then the next round dropped him into Magnus2 and killed 5 nomads, another heavy, and my opponent finally clocked. It’s ability to attrition is disgusting. I take your word for Rahn/pThags. Yeah I did the matchup before Throne, and it was one-sided. Shall try it again with thrones, if I find the time (and the Rahn player). Still not totally convinced by the Elara/pThags, for me you don't really bait in Legion against those lists, even with a feat to follow. I don't think Typhon will be hard to drop with only shooting, he's not even pathfinder so he doesn't NEED to drop him, just respect his cute threat range with a 4" aoe on hist head, consider he's hitting with 8s on those sprays anyway and/or snipe+skyrrith him. Just "give" him 2 halberds to trigger fury on Skirrith and prevent you from leaving the AoE with slipstream. You'll also have to keep him 8" front of pThags if you want to stay in death shroud. Well, I shall try it if the opportunity comes. Couldn't go much more wrong than last time Last times I tried/saw the matchups, eAbsy absolutely does not "handle" Skorne or Grymkin. Were you using a special build ? Cause she just can't drop what... 8 cage ragers ? you can't even use slipstream effectively due to Ruin... (he'll not use sacrifice much on the other hand). Skorne can partially blunt her alpha with agonizers, then it's not even funny to see what their beasts or BE do to your unprotected beasts. Hell, I event got my unyielding-Azrael killed by 6 swdmen once (and rightly so, the dice were actually low). That's 8pts killing 21pts in one charge if you wonder >_> Haha. No. Sorry. You're not going to sell me that sorry. pThags is not going to "suffer a little" when he faces pSkarre with banes or full stalkers. And he can't handle Trolls or Skorne - at all. Try playing him into Zaadesh or Rashet with those critters and BEs, he'll just get shot off the board by poisonous shooting before getting his beasts snaked on counter-charges I recently saw a friend play the "standard" pThags CotD everybody is posting around into a Xerxis2 list. Tabled turn 4. I await the soon-to-come Skorne gunlines with Xekaar (mortality) and a few sentinels with a great lot of joy too As for Trolls, well sure Twisted form is cool, but then Arcane vortex ? (the really funny thing with Arcane vortex is, when you cycle your STR buff to kill Mulg who is into your lines, well oups sorry you just helped Mulg manage his fury ) And/or Owl's wisdom. Snacking is really just there for the LoL. Also don't forget your Scythe and your naga if a wild Madrak is lurking around cause champs with retaliatory + DEF14 + noKD + heal d3+3 are much fun to handle with Thags without this. eFyanna will handle some Cryx matchup though, but again she won't like pSkarre, and she's 50/50 at best against Coven from what I've seen around me. I think in the last tournament the total score of eFyanna vs Nemo3 was like... 0 win 5 losses It was funny to see half a Fyanna list get removed from the table during her feat without the Cygnar player having to roll even once against the DEF17 I must get old or live in the wrong meta, but I come across a Skarre list almost every tournament, then it's all Nemo3/Elara/Zaadesh/Ossrum for the easy games. I win 2:1 of those, usually by last ditch assassinations (people extend too much while relishing the slaughter of my army). That's another way to "win due to attrition" I guess - just get tabled so hard that your opponent forgets to hide his wardude
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bward
Junior Strategist
Posts: 184
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Post by bward on Jan 5, 2018 16:25:53 GMT
Abby2 is widely regarded by the grymkin community as the hardest counter to Dark Menagerie, which is where most of their power is coming from currently.
Agree thags1 does not handle trolls, (or grymkin/minions) where all the beasts RFP. Skorne does the same with Rasheth or the bug that has ranged snacking animus
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twity
Junior Strategist
Posts: 179
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Post by twity on Jan 5, 2018 18:40:23 GMT
www.facebook.com/GigaBitesTabletopCafe/videos/10155064808757823/Does that link work? I lost (due to the failed assassination run and last minute scenario loss) but it shows how pThags can handle Trolls. Not perfect play but definitely one I could have won, I think I could take it now that I have played the list more. Also I won against Makeda2 cats the round before this, though that was pretty close due to some fairly absurd tough rolls. That one was won when I got Twisted form on his only transfer target and shot mak with Azrael
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izrian
Junior Strategist
Posts: 107
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Post by izrian on Jan 5, 2018 18:41:47 GMT
Hate to admit it, but euac is right. I have basically stop playing legion other than the odd game here and there.
I will be participating in the CID heavily, very, very heavily. The reason being since I've stoped playing legion as my main and gotten into trolls I just... I just cannot explain how cohesive trolls feel with band of heroes and storm of the North. I have yet to lose a game.
Which you would think would feel nice. And at times it does having earth borns placed properly having a threat range of 13" with Calandra with her rerolls and landing a befuddled hit with troll Moses or her effectively making an earthborns threat 16" is just bonkers.
I've tabled so many legion players with trolls, out threating basically any thing with out wings legion has, and taking out Carni chassis, any and all nephiliam, character beasts, the lot.
And that's cool and all but it really has shown me that Legion is just not a cohesive faction.. Yes the tool box is great and all but playing legion currently is playing to capitalize on a mistake, or fishing for hot dice or hoping for a gotcha moment of some sort.
Why I am agreeing with euac is because legion has no attrition game. And I mean NONE, play a different faction for 5 games. Build an attrition list drop it into legion.. put yourself in your oponites shoes, you'll just laugh.
Now don't get me wrong. The casters legion has that are good, ARE very good. I have yet "been a while", to loose a game against grymkin when I drop Abby 2, legion also fairs well aginst circle, cygnar, minions, CoC and menoth. But that is so depenpendent on pairings that it almost becomes a coin toss that you might as well do at the start of the game.
Back to attrition though, legion doesn't have. Just doesn't. If you try it your either going to get tabled or loose by scenario. I've tried as have many other people. For the most part people who win with legion is typically from assassination, or the odd senerio clutch and that's usually because their opponents either forgot about it, or are ignoring it.
Just my 2 cents, but o recommend playing a different faction, even if you proxy all the models to get some perspective and insight into what how your oppents play aginst legion, it's baffling how hard you have to work mentally compartivly speaking to other factions, to get a W out of legion.
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Post by davycannonhound on Jan 5, 2018 19:12:48 GMT
Hate to admit it, but euac is right. I have basically stop playing legion other than the odd game here and there. I will be participating in the CID heavily, very, very heavily. The reason being since I've stoped playing legion as my main and gotten into trolls I just... I just cannot explain how cohesive trolls feel with band of heroes and storm of the North. I have yet to lose a game. Which you would think would feel nice. And at times it does having earth borns placed properly having a threat range of 13" with Calandra with her rerolls and landing a befuddled hit with troll Moses or her effectively making an earthborns threat 16" is just bonkers. I've tabled so many legion players with trolls, out threating basically any thing with out wings legion has, and taking out Carni chassis, any and all nephiliam, character beasts, the lot. And that's cool and all but it really has shown me that Legion is just not a cohesive faction.. Yes the tool box is great and all but playing legion currently is playing to capitalize on a mistake, or fishing for hot dice or hoping for a gotcha moment of some sort. Why I am agreeing with euac is because legion has no attrition game. And I mean NONE, play a different faction for 5 games. Build an attrition list drop it into legion.. put yourself in your oponites shoes, you'll just laugh. Now don't get me wrong. The casters legion has that are good, ARE very good. I have yet "been a while", to loose a game against grymkin when I drop Abby 2, legion also fairs well aginst circle, cygnar, minions, CoC and menoth. But that is so depenpendent on pairings that it almost becomes a coin toss that you might as well do at the start of the game. Back to attrition though, legion doesn't have. Just doesn't. If you try it your either going to get tabled or loose by scenario. I've tried as have many other people. For the most part people who win with legion is typically from assassination, or the odd senerio clutch and that's usually because their opponents either forgot about it, or are ignoring it. Just my 2 cents, but o recommend playing a different faction, even if you proxy all the models to get some perspective and insight into what how your oppents play aginst legion, it's baffling how hard you have to work mentally compartivly speaking to other factions, to get a W out of legion. To be honest, I'm not sure if Legion should have an attrition game. Not to undermine your other points, they are all very excellent, however if Legion is supposed to be the glass cannon faction, or the assassination faction, then Legion shouldn't have attrition (unless you're talking about blowing up the opponent's army so badly they can't retaliate).
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Post by davycannonhound on Jan 5, 2018 19:15:12 GMT
How did we start talking about Thagrosh? I thought this was a Vayl post.
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twity
Junior Strategist
Posts: 179
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Post by twity on Jan 5, 2018 19:18:50 GMT
It is a winding and wonderful path we have traveled. I might be to blame, I am really high on pThags at the moment.
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izrian
Junior Strategist
Posts: 107
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Post by izrian on Jan 5, 2018 19:47:11 GMT
Davycannon shooting out gold as usual!! Lol love it 😂!
I agree Davy! I honestly think that the Ogran CID will be the answer to legions attrition game.
And to get kinda back on topic I suppose after my 20 page post heh.
Vayle1 may not be a terrible caster for PT. The play style may be a little slow a bricky but has potential.
Check out a list real quick.
Theme: Primal Terrors 2 / 2 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army
Vayl, Disciple of Everblight - WB: +27 - Nephilim Bolt Thrower - PC: 11 (Battlegroup Points Used: 11) - Seraph - PC: 14 (Battlegroup Points Used: 14) - Ravagore - PC: 19 (Battlegroup Points Used: 2)
Warmonger War Chief - PC: 0 Croak Hunter - PC: 3
Blighted Ogrun Warmongers - Leader & 4 Grunts: 15 Blighted Ogrun Warspears - Leader & 4 Grunts: 15 - Warspear Chieftain - PC: 5 Blighted Ogrun Warspears - Leader & 4 Grunts: 15 - Warspear Chieftain - PC: 5 Hellmouth - Hellmouth & 3 Tentacles: 0
Your relying on incite to do of the heavy lifting of course. Use the ogran mongers to brick in front of her use that to block LOS. Play tight and up the middle.
Use the warspears to protect the Flanks, the war spears could really benefit from feat as well.
Using her nukes and beasts to soften up targets on approach.
By turn 2-3 melee will be an option. Ideally on tour turn after charges and hopefully a lot of things killed while incite is up you can use the feat to reform a meat shield around her. Hopefully the counter won't wipe everything out.
Granted this is a list I have just thrown together and have not tried what so ever in theory it's okay. Top tier? No way. But at local SRs it may stand a chance. Depending on pairings.
I would feel comfortable dropping something like that into grym, most circle, menoth if you can get rid of the dang choir or fit a naga into it, maybe a black industries list depending on caster, maybe ret depending, C OC, merc/min. But I think khador, cygnar, most ret and cryx. Would tear it to shreds by the bottom of round 3.
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Post by copperflame on Jan 5, 2018 19:48:14 GMT
I think a new thread on Legion's niche or overall battle strategy might be in order. I think we have already discussed this but it may have been a while or could use a fresh set of eyes.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Jan 5, 2018 21:14:31 GMT
I think a new thread on Legion's niche or overall battle strategy might be in order. I think we have already discussed this but it may have been a while or could use a fresh set of eyes. Maybe if the CiD shakes anything up; sure. Orgun might turn into the attrition focused model pool. But I am also very wary of the "glass cannon" can't have attrition. We seriously lack damage right now. Circle dwarfs our damage numbers with the bonkers stacking. Even wolds get to hit harder than our stuff now. We can't even begin to compare any of our beast stable against Skorne's free charges and enrage. Trolls get Rage and the stone aura. The Pyre Troll has a stupid +2 damage animus for their beatstick CASTERS. (I may hate Bearka more than is reasonable). Skin+Moans are absolutely bonkers with corpses. If we are meant, by PP, to be the glass cannon faction. Our warbeasts need a serious reconsider. We've got the "glass" part of the idea nailed down already. As it has been said; if you pick up another faction you find a boat load of good model pairings and synergies and it makes you hate Legion. But it's also the concept that Legion has a higher "skill floor" than it used to. So conidering those two things; which in the real problem? Should Legion be the new "git gud" or gtfo faction? Or should it get evened out better with the other factions while sacrificing some of the elite powerhouse types?
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Post by copperflame on Jan 5, 2018 21:51:02 GMT
Yea, I don't think we should look too far into anything until the CID shakes out. It has already been warned for the masses not to get too great expectations up on what all the CID covers (via FB). I do believe some minor adjustments would go along way for me personally but who knows if they are in the cards for this initiative.
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Post by davycannonhound on Jan 5, 2018 22:31:57 GMT
Davycannon shooting out gold as usual!! Lol love it 😂! I agree Davy! I honestly think that the Ogran CID will be the answer to legions attrition game. And to get kinda back on topic I suppose after my 20 page post heh. Vayle1 may not be a terrible caster for PT. The play style may be a little slow a bricky but has potential. Check out a list real quick. Theme: Primal Terrors 2 / 2 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army Vayl, Disciple of Everblight - WB: +27 - Nephilim Bolt Thrower - PC: 11 (Battlegroup Points Used: 11) - Seraph - PC: 14 (Battlegroup Points Used: 14) - Ravagore - PC: 19 (Battlegroup Points Used: 2) Warmonger War Chief - PC: 0 Croak Hunter - PC: 3 Blighted Ogrun Warmongers - Leader & 4 Grunts: 15 Blighted Ogrun Warspears - Leader & 4 Grunts: 15 - Warspear Chieftain - PC: 5 Blighted Ogrun Warspears - Leader & 4 Grunts: 15 - Warspear Chieftain - PC: 5 Hellmouth - Hellmouth & 3 Tentacles: 0 Your relying on incite to do of the heavy lifting of course. Use the ogran mongers to brick in front of her use that to block LOS. Play tight and up the middle. Use the warspears to protect the Flanks, the war spears could really benefit from feat as well. Using her nukes and beasts to soften up targets on approach. By turn 2-3 melee will be an option. Ideally on tour turn after charges and hopefully a lot of things killed while incite is up you can use the feat to reform a meat shield around her. Hopefully the counter won't wipe everything out. Granted this is a list I have just thrown together and have not tried what so ever in theory it's okay. Top tier? No way. But at local SRs it may stand a chance. Depending on pairings. I would feel comfortable dropping something like that into grym, most circle, menoth if you can get rid of the dang choir or fit a naga into it, maybe a black industries list depending on caster, maybe ret depending, C OC, merc/min. But I think khador, cygnar, most ret and cryx. Would tear it to shreds by the bottom of round 3. Why thankyou! Fair point! Very interesting idea! I'd never thought of it (I always jump to ravens or oracles with vayl). You can't complain about lack of beasts in Primal Terrors, which is nice. The ogrun meatshield just /might/ work with her feat (and ogrun having parry is hilarious). What would you recommend as a trade out for that croak hunter?
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haurukh
Junior Strategist
Fyanna, Favourite Child of Everblight
Posts: 202
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Post by haurukh on Jan 5, 2018 23:31:09 GMT
Davycannon shooting out gold as usual!! Lol love it 😂! I agree Davy! I honestly think that the Ogran CID will be the answer to legions attrition game. And to get kinda back on topic I suppose after my 20 page post heh. Vayle1 may not be a terrible caster for PT. The play style may be a little slow a bricky but has potential. Check out a list real quick. Theme: Primal Terrors 2 / 2 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army Vayl, Disciple of Everblight - WB: +27 - Nephilim Bolt Thrower - PC: 11 (Battlegroup Points Used: 11) - Seraph - PC: 14 (Battlegroup Points Used: 14) - Ravagore - PC: 19 (Battlegroup Points Used: 2) Warmonger War Chief - PC: 0 Croak Hunter - PC: 3 Blighted Ogrun Warmongers - Leader & 4 Grunts: 15 Blighted Ogrun Warspears - Leader & 4 Grunts: 15 - Warspear Chieftain - PC: 5 Blighted Ogrun Warspears - Leader & 4 Grunts: 15 - Warspear Chieftain - PC: 5 Hellmouth - Hellmouth & 3 Tentacles: 0 Your relying on incite to do of the heavy lifting of course. Use the ogran mongers to brick in front of her use that to block LOS. Play tight and up the middle. Use the warspears to protect the Flanks, the war spears could really benefit from feat as well. Using her nukes and beasts to soften up targets on approach. By turn 2-3 melee will be an option. Ideally on tour turn after charges and hopefully a lot of things killed while incite is up you can use the feat to reform a meat shield around her. Hopefully the counter won't wipe everything out. Granted this is a list I have just thrown together and have not tried what so ever in theory it's okay. Top tier? No way. But at local SRs it may stand a chance. Depending on pairings. I would feel comfortable dropping something like that into grym, most circle, menoth if you can get rid of the dang choir or fit a naga into it, maybe a black industries list depending on caster, maybe ret depending, C OC, merc/min. But I think khador, cygnar, most ret and cryx. Would tear it to shreds by the bottom of round 3. Why thankyou! Fair point! Very interesting idea! I'd never thought of it (I always jump to ravens or oracles with vayl). You can't complain about lack of beasts in Primal Terrors, which is nice. The ogrun meatshield just /might/ work with her feat (and ogrun having parry is hilarious). What would you recommend as a trade out for that croak hunter? Not sure our current ogrun work so well as shields. After all, they currently die to shooting almost as easily as the remaining infantry, without BB. But maybe a Hellmouth + Warchief / Warspear Chieftain can do it? But the, nobody is gonna walk into hellmouth range with important pieces ... Not sure if parry on Ogrun is that great, after all you can only use it at the end of the turn, so no attacks. And medium bases are harder to squeeze in. I think I woudl use it most to shoot with warspear (assaults?) and back up, while actually getting the warmonger into melee witha run followed by another advance. Warmongers jamming up ranged infantry like that with a 15" movement might be fun ^^
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