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Post by slaughtersun on Jan 3, 2018 20:12:49 GMT
I like mk3 legion. I do think however that unlike most factions, mk3 legion plays way different than their mk2 versions. And this is not only warlocks but beasts and units as well.
These changes make legion players have to adapt to a new playstyle and this is a big effort to make.
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Post by cainuslupus on Jan 3, 2018 20:40:31 GMT
I like mk3 legion. I do think however that unlike most factions, mk3 legion plays way different than their mk2 versions. And this is not only warlocks but beasts and units as well. These changes make legion players have to adapt to a new playstyle and this is a big effort to make. I think that everyone still playing Legion adapted long ago. I prefer Mk3 as a whole but am really jaded about how little effort was put into transition in Legion. Heavy handed nerfs and ridiculous point costs are commonplace. Vayl1 is probably the worst offender. She is nerfed Mk2 caster that lost all of her tricks and didn't get any new ones. Basically what we need is some effort on PP part to make her MK3 caster, plain and simple.
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eauc
Junior Strategist
Posts: 209
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Post by eauc on Jan 3, 2018 20:52:13 GMT
Don't know, I've got exactly the same victory rate (2:1) in mk3 so I'd say I did adapt pretty ok. IMHO in the current competitive meta Blight cannot play the attrition game. Lists like the flying circus with Fyanna, or eAbsy standard, can have a good attrition games against half the lists, but stuff like Cryx or Skorne or Scyrah are impossible to contain now (mostly due to the lost of our good gunline options). I'm left with a game geared towards tricks and caster kill mainly. My victory ratio shifted from 3:1 scenario to 4:1 caster kill. The funny thing is, when I go over the top with caster killing threats in my lists, people start to play a lot more defensively in response (well, at least good players do... the others die turn 2), and thus I have a game a attrition and scenario again. What you say is true for some models. I for one love the Scythean after I've come to understand he's not a frontliner anymore, but must be played as support/late game piece. Angelii are great as infantry cleaners. Neraphs are my new heavy beater. Carniveans are mainly for caster kills. But a lot of other stuff, mainly our warriors, are still pretty much the same. Swordmen didn't become our star ranged unit in mk3, raptors/grots play pretty much the same, hex hunter may have seen the most change (from infantry cleaners to support/control)... and all the rest is pretty much shit in competitive lists. But well, my game style did change a lot. However most of the people who came here to suggest that we should adapt our playstyle, didn't exactly provide any new suggestion to how to play pVayl in mk3... we're stuck with ideas that were already the basis of her gamestyle in mk2. I await my revelation
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Post by cainuslupus on Jan 3, 2018 22:25:04 GMT
Thats annoying part, isn't it? People suggesting that we're still in Mk2 mindset without providing anything of value opinionwise. If there is some funky Mk3 way to play Vayl1 let us know, don't keep it for yourself. I hope this revelation is not "you can jam with Feat" because I did this in Mk2 with Hex Hunters, thank you very much. But it wasn't to keep Vayl1 alive, it's suicide most of the time. And while Vayl1 was Mk2 Hordes (and tremendous mirror match) right now she have no game worth mentioning I'm aware of.
Somehow I can play Vayl2, Saeryn1 and Lylyth2 in Mk3 with relative success and many different lists. All three are nothing like they Mk2 counterparts and while I see failings with how Saeryn1 was changed for Mk3 at least there was minimal effort put into her. Vayl1 can't play how she played in Mk2 but doesn't have anything else.
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bward
Junior Strategist
Posts: 184
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Post by bward on Jan 4, 2018 13:52:35 GMT
Don't know, I've got exactly the same victory rate (2:1) in mk3 so I'd say I did adapt pretty ok. IMHO in the current competitive meta Blight cannot play the attrition game. Lists like the flying circus with Fyanna, or eAbsy standard, can have a good attrition games against half the lists, but stuff like Cryx or Skorne or Scyrah are impossible to contain now (mostly due to the lost of our good gunline options). I'm left with a game geared towards tricks and caster kill mainly. My victory ratio shifted from 3:1 scenario to 4:1 caster kill. The funny thing is, when I go over the top with caster killing threats in my lists, people start to play a lot more defensively in response (well, at least good players do... the others die turn 2), and thus I have a game a attrition and scenario again. What you say is true for some models. I for one love the Scythean after I've come to understand he's not a frontliner anymore, but must be played as support/late game piece. Angelii are great as infantry cleaners. Neraphs are my new heavy beater. Carniveans are mainly for caster kills. But a lot of other stuff, mainly our warriors, are still pretty much the same. Swordmen didn't become our star ranged unit in mk3, raptors/grots play pretty much the same, hex hunter may have seen the most change (from infantry cleaners to support/control)... and all the rest is pretty much shit in competitive lists. But well, my game style did change a lot. However most of the people who came here to suggest that we should adapt our playstyle, didn't exactly provide any new suggestion to how to play pVayl in mk3... we're stuck with ideas that were already the basis of her gamestyle in mk2. I await my revelation Not to nitpick out a small part of a larger and good post... but what problems do you have into Ret? I play them weekly and have never had an issue, so if we talk it out maybe we can work through whats going on? Because I don’t think they should be doing anything that Legion struggles with.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Jan 4, 2018 15:57:47 GMT
I can say I've been one to go wildly off meta and far from the MK2 playstyle. I cannot say I have any revelation about Vayl 1. I want to make her work. I want to find something that works well. But she doesn't.
I see Incite as a literal knife in the back in terms of design. She just cannot use it yet it's what her design is intended to use. Yes there is functionality to be found in a gunline that backs off for an extra turn of shooting then commits under the incite buff. But I can only say that is gods awful boring.
She is the only caster in our line up that I say deserves a full rewrite.
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eauc
Junior Strategist
Posts: 209
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Post by eauc on Jan 5, 2018 9:16:39 GMT
Not to nitpick out a small part of a larger and good post... but what problems do you have into Ret? I play them weekly and have never had an issue, so if we talk it out maybe we can work through whats going on? Because I don’t think they should be doing anything that Legion struggles with. Attrition-wise (because that's what I was talking about but assassination is also a problem with other warcasters), Issyria and Elara come to mind. Issyria has always been rough since her early days in mk2. She buff everything good enough that they have just the upper hand on my blight armies on attrition. Plus she likes to bring a lot of infantry models which are often a pain to handle efficiently enough with our most common lists. We have solutions of course. We can kill half her models ok. It's just that the other half is good enough to put us in a dire position. My main solution has always been assassination because, well... she dies when any of our beats can look at her. In mk3 her infantry choices just became better, she has a new really silly arcnode, while our choices are globaly a lot more pricy and less tanky... not a good shift regarding attrition. But really the worst I've faced is Ellara in Defender of Ios with like: BE, 3 heavies (Sphynx ?), 2x full halberds, snipers, skyrith. There is a new version with 2 BEs I really don't want to face. The cricket is really hard to face in Legion I feel. At range it has a clear advantage with +4 ARM, while it can choose between boosted damage against our heavies and rough terrain against swdmen. Plus at RAT9, it hits. In melee well, no charge means most of our stuff really struggle to catch it fast enough, and warriors weep blood tears. But then there's the rest of the army. Boundless-charging ghostly death-shrouded halberds are not fun. Sphynxes and snipers are just here to mop up the survivors or defend the core, but they do it well. Skyrith is there for those times when you have hope, he can utterly crush it by shield guarding your important shot or killing your heavy in one shot because you dared to kill a halberd on your previous turn Really, worst game ever. The Ret guy who's playing it still has to lose with it to Legion. I think we can build to counter it, but that would be very specific. Most of our standard builds would get crushed, unless the Ret player makes an enormous mistake. For reference, the last lists who totally tabled my army while I never felt I really stood a chance in the game : - Elara - pSkarre - Zaadesh - Nemo3 (bad matchup for my pairing at the time, I've done/seen people do better with our infantry lists, as strange as that sounds) - Ossrum (well I need a Scythe to kill a 6pts chicken apparently, while 3 chicken kill a Scythe in cover at 12" range, lol) In my last tournament: - Dreamer, win by CasterKill, just before getting washed away at attrition (took 2-3 heavies ok, left with 2-3 heavies if front of my 2). - Coven, loss by Scenario, attrition was pretty equal I think - but because he made a huge mistake and I answered with the perfect turn. We were left with 3-4 models each but his BE can spawn flag-scoring incorporeal solos so... yeah. - Nemo3, win by attrition, just because my opponent made strange choices and I happened to have just one of the build that can surprise a noobish Cygnar player. Still, we both had only 3-4 models at the end, it's just that mine were berzerking ogruns under dark guidance while his were junior and squire stuff - Zaadesh, loss by attrition (tabled while I killed an agoniser !) - Ossrum, win by CasterKill because I didn't have any army left at top of 3 :-\ - Strakhov1, win by CasterKill because I didn't even try to play attrition against a colossal + 8 heavies who were all charging farther than my 3 heavies, for free It really made me feel like we don't have any attrition game anymore.
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unded
Junior Strategist
Posts: 760
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Post by unded on Jan 5, 2018 11:35:50 GMT
It really made me feel like we don't have any attrition game anymore. I'm pretty sure we don't. When our most efficient beatstick beast is a Neraph, which is still 3 points down on a Juggernaut / Ironclad, there's no way we win an attrition war. An Angel at 17 points fails to one-round 12-point heavies, and while a Scythean / Carni can do it you're paying character-heavy points for those. We need to cheat trades, and really our options for doing so are very limited. What really galls me is that playing into trolls we get outgunned as the Ravagore is so thoroughly outdone by the Bomber. Considering I'm an attrition player first and foremost, it's not a great time for me in the Legion. Hell, I shoot more effectively in Circle, who would have thought that day would ever come? -und_ed
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twity
Junior Strategist
Posts: 179
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Post by twity on Jan 5, 2018 13:10:14 GMT
CotD is very effective for attrition under pThags. If you try and trade beast for beast/jack in legion you will lose, it just doesn't work anymore. That doesn't mean you can't win on attrition, you just can't throw a Carni into a Juggernaut and hope to come out the other side alright. Creative plays are needed to be competitive.
The faction can win big tournaments (http://www.discountgamesinc.com/tournaments/), as well as local steamrollers. I would argue that the skill "floor" so to speak is higher in Legion then in other factions, you can't just slam into your opponents army and missteps with expensive beasts will cost you double. However, you have more options available then the jackspam Khador lists, and it is difficult to quantify that in points paid for boxes/mat/rat.
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eauc
Junior Strategist
Posts: 209
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Post by eauc on Jan 5, 2018 13:39:24 GMT
Creative plays are needed to be competitive. Personally, my solution is to play outrageous caster-kill list, and force people to fort around their wardude, then I'm free to win on attrition against the other half of their list And actually, I think one of the problem is that currently builds in my meta are like, 95% offensive/attrition. People take absolutely no defensive options/tech. I was absolutely baffled to see so many lists without any magic protection and/or shield guard. Maybe it's time to take 3Lylyth and eVayl on a walk again. Make them remember the fear of top of 2 assassination. Then, when they start to invest more in defensive tech again, the attrition game will be easier for us maybe. LoL, I'm in that list actually Though by looking at the rest, I wonder what's left if we remove JVM and Brian Marino The problem is the same since good ol' mk2: JVM is OP, plizz nerf !
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bward
Junior Strategist
Posts: 184
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Post by bward on Jan 5, 2018 13:49:42 GMT
Thags1 is not only the best attrition caster in Legion, but one of the top attrition casters in the game.
I typically almost always drop him into Ret, and its Thags, Typhon, Carni, Angelius, 2 Thrones, min HH w/ Bayal, and support. Get Typhon out early and have him spray some halbs and bait a feat trade. Halbs charging on thrones with their mini feat is still dice -8, Issyria or Elara can fix that a bit so just only put yourself in position to take charges from 4-5 on the thrones, and they can snack back up the next turn. The other sprays should melt the unit, and I usually try and get a spine burst into the back lines to take out the arcanists. Once the jacks lose access to concentrated power then they really struggle to crack the effective arm22 of Typhon/Carni/Throne.
Personally, I am a big fan of this over the COTD version of Thags1, but if we are talking Ret I certainly see its merit as its very important to go first in order to slow down how much board the Halbs can claim, and that +1 to starting roll is certainly beneficial. In this case where I lose the roll to go first, I just sacrifice the hex hunters and run them all to engage bottom of 1 and position the Thrones behind for the follow up.
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twity
Junior Strategist
Posts: 179
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Post by twity on Jan 5, 2018 14:21:49 GMT
Even if it is a small sample of people winning (and I would argue that is true across more then just Legion), you are forced to balance against what the faction can do at its peak of performance.
I think there is some wiggle room, giving conventional utility without letting high skill players go out of control, but it is tricky and is almost definitely not a straight stat buff or point cost reduction to pieces that are used in successful lists and tournament performances. If someone can win with a cost 17 Angelius they will become even more difficult to beat if you reduce it to 15 points.
My current point of view is a player who was successful in Mk2 (I did well in steamrollers, Crucible/NoVa a few times) but has little experience in competitive masters in Mk3 (I was forced to quit playing for three years and just got back into the game). I don't know if my point of view is accurate for play at the highest level, but I honestly think the faction is fine with only a few pieces requiring fine tune adjustment (and I would throw Vayl1 in that list). However, asking for raw buffs is problematic and unproductive. We need to look for ways to change where power is instead of just adding raw power to models we have been less then successful with. Just because I can't really get Vayl2 to work like I remember her in Mk2 doesn't mean she just needs to get refuge and oblit back.
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eauc
Junior Strategist
Posts: 209
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Post by eauc on Jan 5, 2018 14:29:40 GMT
Thags1 is not only the best attrition caster in Legion, but one of the top attrition casters in the game. I typically almost always drop him into Ret, and its Thags, Typhon, Carni, Angelius, 2 Thrones, min HH w/ Bayal, and support. Get Typhon out early and have him spray some halbs and bait a feat trade. Halbs charging on thrones with their mini feat is still dice -8, Issyria or Elara can fix that a bit so just only put yourself in position to take charges from 4-5 on the thrones, and they can snack back up the next turn. The other sprays should melt the unit, and I usually try and get a spine burst into the back lines to take out the arcanists. Once the jacks lose access to concentrated power then they really struggle to crack the effective arm22 of Typhon/Carni/Throne. Personally, I am a big fan of this over the COTD version of Thags1, but if we are talking Ret I certainly see its merit as its very important to go first in order to slow down how much board the Halbs can claim, and that +1 to starting roll is certainly beneficial. In this case where I lose the roll to go first, I just sacrifice the hex hunters and run them all to engage bottom of 1 and position the Thrones behind for the follow up. I like the plan. Didn't have pThags at hand that time. My throne was flown off the board by the range attacks though (BEs + sniper, maybe a jack too). Didn't have time to see the halberds He still grossly out-threat you though, so he can probably choose when and how he engage. And with the range support it would not be out of question to just drop both BEs and more with the alpha - halbs can combine too, so base P+S16 for dice -6, can combine ? Rifles are pure damage, BE has 2 boosted shots at dice -2 too. Assuming a regular feat turn with Scything touch cycled in the mix... I think Kallus2 could have game too. Force the BE to use the difficult terrain against infantry or the boosted damage against infantry. Overrun means a heavy can reach the BE early. And Blazing path could be amazing against the infantry. Certainly a pair or Raek (or nephs in CotD), then Zuriel or Azreal, and swdmen... with UAs any remaining sdwmen could tear up a whole lot of halberds too. Well you know, the problem is not so much to find ONE list to counter ONE specific matchup. But to find 2 lists that correctly covers 75% of the current meta. For example I wouldn't drop pThags into Rahn or Kaelyssa. Would have to try again with the Thrones (and gobbers) since they certainly help a lot in the matchup, but without them, the last times I tried it finished very early for me... If I take pThags, my other list also has to manage cryx and trolls and half skorne (and ossrum) - maybe some cygnar too - which is not easy to cover with one list IMO ?
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bward
Junior Strategist
Posts: 184
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Post by bward on Jan 5, 2018 14:43:17 GMT
Thags1 is not only the best attrition caster in Legion, but one of the top attrition casters in the game. I typically almost always drop him into Ret, and its Thags, Typhon, Carni, Angelius, 2 Thrones, min HH w/ Bayal, and support. Get Typhon out early and have him spray some halbs and bait a feat trade. Halbs charging on thrones with their mini feat is still dice -8, Issyria or Elara can fix that a bit so just only put yourself in position to take charges from 4-5 on the thrones, and they can snack back up the next turn. The other sprays should melt the unit, and I usually try and get a spine burst into the back lines to take out the arcanists. Once the jacks lose access to concentrated power then they really struggle to crack the effective arm22 of Typhon/Carni/Throne. Personally, I am a big fan of this over the COTD version of Thags1, but if we are talking Ret I certainly see its merit as its very important to go first in order to slow down how much board the Halbs can claim, and that +1 to starting roll is certainly beneficial. In this case where I lose the roll to go first, I just sacrifice the hex hunters and run them all to engage bottom of 1 and position the Thrones behind for the follow up. I like the plan. Didn't have pThags at hand that time. My throne was flown off the board by the range attacks though (BEs + sniper, maybe a jack too). Didn't have time to see the halberds He still grossly out-threat you though, so he can probably choose when and how he engage. And with the range support it would not be out of question to just drop both BEs and more with the alpha - halbs can combine too, so base P+S16 for dice -6, can combine ? Rifles are pure damage, BE has 2 boosted shots at dice -2 too. Assuming a regular feat turn with Scything touch cycled in the mix... I think Kallus2 could have game too. Force the BE to use the difficult terrain against infantry or the boosted damage against infantry. Overrun means a heavy can reach the BE early. And Blazing path could be amazing against the infantry. Certainly a pair or Raek (or nephs in CotD), then Zuriel or Azreal, and swdmen... with UAs any remaining sdwmen could tear up a whole lot of halberds too. Well you know, the problem is not so much to find ONE list to counter ONE specific matchup. But to find 2 lists that correctly covers 75% of the current meta. For example I wouldn't drop pThags into Rahn or Kaelyssa. Would have to try again with the Thrones (and gobbers) since they certainly help a lot in the matchup, but without them, the last times I tried it finished very early for me... If I take pThags, my other list also has to manage cryx and trolls and half skorne (and ossrum) - maybe some cygnar too - which is not easy to cover with one list IMO ? So to work from the bottom up. My other list right now is a fairly standard Abby2. She’s my answer to Hordes, especially grymkin/trolls. Thags is mostly for the WM side. Thags into Rahn is a great matchup, I’ve played it competitively a couple times with success. You pin Thags behind the 2 huge bases and then pepper stealthed hex hunters around the thrones and Rahn has no way to pull it apart. Then just march up the field. As far as the shooting, to me it really comes down to baiting with Typhon. I just need to get him so agressive up the board that my opponent can’t afford to NOT kill him, so they dedicate the resources there instead of the Thrones and then I can get into better positioning. I play into Ret a lot just because they are prominent in my meta, and I’ve never once felt that Thags was an unflavored matchup. Other factions for sure he has awful match ups, but Ret doesn’t really do much that counters him IMO. Last steamroller I dropped him into Karchev and killed 7 khador heavies + Karchev himself, and then the next round dropped him into Magnus2 and killed 5 nomads, another heavy, and my opponent finally clocked. It’s ability to attrition is disgusting.
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twity
Junior Strategist
Posts: 179
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Post by twity on Jan 5, 2018 14:53:40 GMT
Thags1 is not only the best attrition caster in Legion, but one of the top attrition casters in the game. I typically almost always drop him into Ret, and its Thags, Typhon, Carni, Angelius, 2 Thrones, min HH w/ Bayal, and support. Get Typhon out early and have him spray some halbs and bait a feat trade. Halbs charging on thrones with their mini feat is still dice -8, Issyria or Elara can fix that a bit so just only put yourself in position to take charges from 4-5 on the thrones, and they can snack back up the next turn. The other sprays should melt the unit, and I usually try and get a spine burst into the back lines to take out the arcanists. Once the jacks lose access to concentrated power then they really struggle to crack the effective arm22 of Typhon/Carni/Throne. Personally, I am a big fan of this over the COTD version of Thags1, but if we are talking Ret I certainly see its merit as its very important to go first in order to slow down how much board the Halbs can claim, and that +1 to starting roll is certainly beneficial. In this case where I lose the roll to go first, I just sacrifice the hex hunters and run them all to engage bottom of 1 and position the Thrones behind for the follow up. I like the plan. Didn't have pThags at hand that time. My throne was flown off the board by the range attacks though (BEs + sniper, maybe a jack too). Didn't have time to see the halberds He still grossly out-threat you though, so he can probably choose when and how he engage. And with the range support it would not be out of question to just drop both BEs and more with the alpha - halbs can combine too, so base P+S16 for dice -6, can combine ? Rifles are pure damage, BE has 2 boosted shots at dice -2 too. Assuming a regular feat turn with Scything touch cycled in the mix... I think Kallus2 could have game too. Force the BE to use the difficult terrain against infantry or the boosted damage against infantry. Overrun means a heavy can reach the BE early. And Blazing path could be amazing against the infantry. Certainly a pair or Raek (or nephs in CotD), then Zuriel or Azreal, and swdmen... with UAs any remaining sdwmen could tear up a whole lot of halberds too. Well you know, the problem is not so much to find ONE list to counter ONE specific matchup. But to find 2 lists that correctly covers 75% of the current meta. For example I wouldn't drop pThags into Rahn or Kaelyssa. Would have to try again with the Thrones (and gobbers) since they certainly help a lot in the matchup, but without them, the last times I tried it finished very early for me... If I take pThags, my other list also has to manage cryx and trolls and half skorne (and ossrum) - maybe some cygnar too - which is not easy to cover with one list IMO ? pThags can handle trolls, I recently dropped him into winter trolls and twisted form is way strong. They often like to put their caster up in the thick of it and Thags can punish that heavily. He also felt very good into Skorne, which I have played ~3 times. I like to cover him with Fyanna ravens, which has great game into Cryx and some Cygnar matchups. Still, don't underestimate his power to cover odd matchups, he has a trick for everything. His clouds are actually pretty great into cryx, and makes it so you can play him super aggressively. You also have Typhon with sprays, it is even stronger if you drop Oracles with him and the thrones. I think he suffers a little vs Cryx, who don't really care about your armor buffs a lot of the time, but you have a game.
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