For me it's mainly a problem that she was my favorite warlock in mk2. She had so much gameplay depth. I played her during my whole gamer carrier and constantly progressed. When I remember the last games I did with her in mk2, I was having the most fun I ever had in the game, pulling insane (by my standard) tricks with lurker + pot + leash, to apply scytheans of angelii to the face of unexpecting victims.
Towards the end of mk2 I feel there was a lot of competition between eAbsy/pVayl/eThagrosh for the spot of main melee build.
pVayl main argument was Rampager, but I also favored her because of the depth of her gameplay, and her toolbox.
She lost all that.
The few times I played her in mk3, I never had fun.
So it's kinda hard to be objective.
I don't see any reason to play her considering what she gives her army compared to other warlocks...
- Incite is nice and works with beasts/warriors alike. But it costs 4. You'll not do much else the turn you cast incite since if you don't camp 2 you're dead. And the problem is, if you apply it to a maximum ennemy models, you're dead. pVayl still pretty much dies to a good POW10 salvo or AoE scattering. Even if you plan for your army to wipe the floor with any threat to her, you're too dependent on good dice to save a fragile warlock you put on your frontline.
Compared to eAbsy, alpha hunter is much safer to trigger and a pretty huge boost too, the STR bonus is only on the feat but on the other hand Incite is so hard to cast multiple times in the same game, and eAbsy is so much safer when she leads from the front.
Compared to eThags, well he's the safest of all now and can apply Manifest Destiny from 14+" while camping 3 easily.
Both only work on beasts though, so I'm tempted to play pVayl with infantry to play into the specificity of incite...
- the feat is ridiculous. The only point of the old feat was to combo with incite. Now we're not restricted in numbers and all the army move, except the one model that matters.
Don't think you can use it for hit&run with your beasts. Falling back 5" with land shark or 7" with skyshark is not enough in my experience. Skysharks are better here since with sprint on neraph or repulse on angelii you can end quite far indeed... except a lot of the lists you're wanting to drop into, do not provide that much to trigger sprint easily, and/or have a lot of models immune to push...
Also you'll need something to jam while you're falling back. Legion can't jam in mk3 (not in a competitive meta anyway). My best bet was the throne, it kinda works except that an unbuffed throne is not that hard to kill by mk3 standard. People expect to handle much tougher targets. Which means it'll fall fast enough, and then it's open bar on pVayl who is probably not that far behind.
The other thing you can use the feat for, is agressive positionning. It's quite fun actually. But it's just "cute", a lot of armies won't care if an unbuffed Legion list is threatening them just outside of their deployment zone, they'll just wait & tough it up.
- outside of this, pVayl only bring her army 2 things : leash and chiller.
I find the nerf to leash to be quite unimportant personnally. Considering you'll bring splitstream it mostly never matters really. Still it's another reason to bring at least one angelius.
Chiller is still nice but honestly DEF is not really a problem in mk3 Legion anymore, and it's really on the lowest side of the buff scale compared to all our other warlocks. It was nice when you applied it systematically with incite for an overall MAT10+ on most things, but now that you're waiting the perfect time to cast incite, chiller has become the only support pVayl brings her army meanwhile... And it's really lame support.
Still good for CasterKill mind you.
- she lost a lot of things that were really important for her, more than for other warlocks : tenacity, lurker, dark sentinel nerf, good recursion with the pot... Even the auto-hit vs stealth nerf is another nail in her coffin (that was another unique tool she had compared to eAbsy).
- when you look at incite you want to try infantry with her... except we have a lot of warlocks who will support our infantry better. pRhyas, Betty, pLylyth, Fyanna, both Kalluses... really hard to justify playing a warlock that'll only bring -2DEF on most turns, except the turn right before she dies because our infantry certainly cannot jam to protect her correctly. Most importantly she brings nothing to help infantry survives, which is kinda sad compared to our warlocks with occultation or Iron Flesh for example.
- she has low beast points. Not Betty-low but still, all our other warlocks but eThags do better. Considering she needs quite a lot of support it's really hard to make good lists.
- she feel like a generalist, but she has no toolbox compared to eVayl or the Twins. She doesn't help against gunlines, cryx, or bricks. How am I expected to pair her ?
Now I'd really like to see what other people are playing with her and what kind of list they have success with, if any.
I've seen good and suprising lists with other struggling warlocks (betty and pSaeryn come to mind) but never with pVayl.
Nothing that didn't make me think, "ok that's a list I'd rather play with [eAbsy/pLylyth/pRhyas/Kallus2...]
My bases are like this :
- I need one (or two) thrones because that's the best thing I can apply the feat onto. And they like incite very much.
- I want a seraph because unfortunately slipstream is even more cruch for her now, and at least it benefits from Incite. Also it removes stealth (see below).
- I want at least an angelius because 17" range assassination with MAT10 P+S16 armor piercing is a thing. A LOT of other warlocks do this better, but it's still one of her best tools to keep people honest. And repulse can help to save my ass.
- I want infantry that hit hard to benefit from Incite. Except if they're only melee hitters, I could be playing Kallus2 or Fyanna and it would be better. Ok so this leaves raptors. Raptors under incite sound nice (they ARE nice really). They're nice to apply chiller. They like the repo from the feat. They combo well with the seraph. Only problem is, they suck at jamming.
- if I bring raptors I should consider Annyssa. Actually, Annyssa under incite is threat enough to most flared wardudes, that I feel she's auto-include.
- I'd LOVE to bring Craelix but he's not in any theme force with the above options.
- BFS is a really interesting options, since if I'm risking Vayl to cast incite, I'd very much like to ensure the kill with supporting Ice cage + kiss. Also, they benefit from incite to cast their spells, which means my opponent might not be expecting 2 MAG9 POW16 ice bolt for example, or 3 MAT11 POW11 magical WM charges (with battle wizards). Also, they combo with the throne to freeze important models and try to save my ass.
- Ice witches could actually be interesting since PM on key models would avoid bad roll syndrom when I expose Vayl, and their spray can actually de-jam nicely under Incite. Plus combo with throne and BFS... But they cost too much.
- I still need a good jamming options. Banshees come to mind since their sprays under incite are good, and good SPD to apply chiller. Hex hunter are another option in Oracles, and also freeze + shadow bind start to make a lot of things to shake.
- I want gobbers
- WE&SJ are actually nice. They don't benefit from her, but they protect her nicely from being shot to death by anybody who can't boost, and their independance is actually quite nice on the board.
- I want a theme force and free points, considering I'm starting low on beasts points. Given the above, it's either Oracles or Ravens. You loose half your cruch models in each. She can't even take Typhon in theme. I
COULD play CoD right ? Raptors, BFS, even Zuriel instead of the angelius... Except I loose the seraph.Tried it once. Worst nightmare ever. Thank you so much for sucking Theme forces PP.
Which gives me this:
[Theme] Ravens of War
(Vayl 1) Vayl, Disciple of Everblight [+27]
- Angelius [17]
- Neraph [12]
- Seraph [14]
Annyssa Ryvaal [8]
Grotesque Assassin [0(4)]
Spell Martyr [1]
Wrong Eye [17] (or another unit of raptors)
Blighted Nyss Raptors (max) [18]
Grotesque Banshees (max) [13]
Swamp Gobbers Bellows Crew [2]
(this list is far better played by pLylyth)
Or this:
[Theme] Oracles of Annihilation
(Vayl 1) Vayl, Disciple of Everblight [+27]
- Angelius [17]
- Neraph [12]
- Neraph [12]
- Seraph [14]
Blighted Nyss Sorceress & Hellion [0(6)]
The Forsaken [4]
Blighted Nyss Hex Hunters (min) [9]
- Bayal, Hound of Everblight [0(6)]
Swamp Gobbers Bellows Crew [2]
Throne of Everblight [16]
Throne of Everblight [16]
(this list is far better with pSaeryn)
Or if you want to suffer:
[Theme] Children of the Dragon
(Vayl 1) Vayl, Disciple of Everblight [+27]
- Azrael [21]
- Nephilim Bolt Thrower [11]
- Zuriel [18]
Annyssa Ryvaal [8]
Craelix, Fang of Everblight [0(6)]
Incubus (5) [0(6)] (can be a sorceress)
Blackfrost Shard [9]
Blighted Nyss Hex Hunters (min) [9]
- Bayal, Hound of Everblight [6]
Blighted Nyss Raptors (max) [18]
Swamp Gobbers Bellows Crew [2]
(don't play this. Seriously).
I was wondering if they're is something to do with ogruns ? (that could be better played by Fyanna/Kallus/Amaragh).
