eauc
Junior Strategist
Posts: 209
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Post by eauc on Jan 2, 2018 22:19:06 GMT
Who thought we could jam on pVayl's feat ? ;D
In mk3 you need to jam even harder since Vayl herself doesn't fall back.
In mk3 you won't be making interesting new models from the losses in your jamming screen, due to the nerf of lessers and point inefficency of the pot.
So you're left with models that can't take a punch and cost more than the stuff they're trying to jam.
Striders would be nice jammers in a meta without bunch of electroleaps, vent-steaming kodiaks, bulldozing jacks, MAT9 infantry with 3D6 to hit, trampling heavies, tartarus under dark guidance, etc etc etc. For having played them in the role quite a lot in the days, you'll want incubi to really jam efficiently enough, and then you're paying ~16pts for those screening models (unless you get incubi for free in CoD but then - no striders. see the irony ?).
And then jamming is not even enough if your opponent has enough pew pew guns and they can get a LoS to Vayl. Infantry sucks a blocking LoS reliably.
Not saying it can't be made to work. Just that it always felt weak to me in competitive setups, and it usually cost me a lot of precautions & time, while Vayl is not rewarding me much anymore. Why take the pain ?
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haurukh
Junior Strategist
Fyanna, Favourite Child of Everblight
Posts: 202
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Post by haurukh on Jan 2, 2018 23:14:52 GMT
Who thought we could jam on pVayl's feat ? ;D In mk3 you need to jam even harder since Vayl herself doesn't fall back. In mk3 you won't be making interesting new models from the losses in your jamming screen, due to the nerf of lessers and point inefficency of the pot. So you're left with models that can't take a punch and cost more than the stuff they're trying to jam. Striders would be nice jammers in a meta without bunch of electroleaps, vent-steaming kodiaks, bulldozing jacks, MAT9 infantry with 3D6 to hit, trampling heavies, tartarus under dark guidance, etc etc etc. For having played them in the role quite a lot in the days, you'll want incubi to really jam efficiently enough, and then you're paying ~16pts for those screening models (unless you get incubi for free in CoD but then - no striders. see the irony ?). And then jamming is not even enough if your opponent has enough pew pew guns and they can get a LoS to Vayl. Infantry sucks a blocking LoS reliably. Not saying it can't be made to work. Just that it always felt weak to me in competitive setups, and it usually cost me a lot of precautions & time, while Vayl is not rewarding me much anymore. Why take the pain ? Well, maybe Striders are not "jamming" in the sense that they survive and tie up the enemy. But they might take some activations fo specific models to be removed, which are then not available for the assassination Same for grotesques, they die to anything, but might force some inconvenient activations. If you put them in between your opponents infantry, he might be forced to activate his troops to kill them, which might be enough after a good incite turn, that will be followed by another round of incite. Not saying it is great, but maybe with her old playstyle being inviable, checking her out with some of our new options could help. For example, the Farrow Valkyries finally bring the option to have affordable shield guards in legion, which might help her out quite a bit Not saying I would complain about adding some new spell to her card. MAybe Tenacity the spell, for Cost 2?
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Post by wkm on Jan 3, 2018 2:40:36 GMT
Personally whenever I've built a list I have always felt I needed a few more points to make a good list and every theme force is missing a key piece.
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thelat
Junior Strategist
Posts: 480
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Post by thelat on Jan 3, 2018 5:03:53 GMT
Legion is A) Too fragile to jam. B) Too expensive to sacrifice models. Not entirely true. You can jam nicely with striders, and I imagine free-strike immun Grotesques can also be placed to be very annoying It is pretty true for beasts though. This guy knows what's up. I think a lot of people are still trying to play MkII Legion into MkIII rules.
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Post by cainuslupus on Jan 3, 2018 12:15:50 GMT
Not entirely true. You can jam nicely with striders, and I imagine free-strike immun Grotesques can also be placed to be very annoying It is pretty true for beasts though. This guy knows what's up. I think a lot of people are still trying to play MkII Legion into MkIII rules. I don't think he does. I know from experience that people just tend to pick stuff that reliably works rather than trying to polish the turds, which right now Vayl1 definitelly is. Main problem with Vayl1 is that you need tons of work to make her mediocre, while at the same time there are genuine good choices. It's hard to make 8 Fury/Focus caster bad but PP managed just that with their lazy approach. Trying to blame Legion players for this is just ridiculous. I saw multiple great Kallus2 lists, because spells like Bloodlust (nit sure the name, sure it's awesome when you Raiders become weaponmasters and your Raptors hit on 5 dmg doce) and Overrun allow people to play something new and good. And I believe Kallus2 was designed to work best with Ogrun, so he is probably going up if CiD won't be a disaster. But he is bringing something that makes him viable with infantry (like extending threat ranges or making them immune to fire - you get punishing Legion and PoM drop just like that). Vayl1 was gutted so hard that her "jam and pray" (or rather "jam and die") game just makes normal people consider other, better options. But I guess since you're going ballistic you have good Vayl1 list and can show us those Steamrollers you've got decent showing with her. Which matchups she is good into etc. Because going "Legion players are dumb" is not very constructive. I'll be honest - I don't see how Vayl1 can be successful in MK3 that I would consider her in three (lets be lenient) list pairing. As a closing statement - I don't believe Cryx players were stuck in Mk2 with Denny2, and I believe she was still better caster before CiD than Vayl1 is. But that's the problem with Mk3, isn't it? That only handful of factions were really worked out, others are fixed by CiD as we go. OP wanted to know why so many people consider Vayl1 bad and it was pretty much summed up in eauc post. Very little bang for a lot of risk and effort. If she was high risk/skill ceiling high reward she would be played.
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eauc
Junior Strategist
Posts: 209
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Post by eauc on Jan 3, 2018 13:44:35 GMT
Well, maybe Striders are not "jamming" in the sense that they survive and tie up the enemy. But they might take some activations fo specific models to be removed, which are then not available for the assassination Same for grotesques, they die to anything, but might force some inconvenient activations. If you put them in between your opponents infantry, he might be forced to activate his troops to kill them, which might be enough after a good incite turn, that will be followed by another round of incite. That's exactly my point actually. Strider are only marginally more survivable (as jamming units) than grots, but they cost quite more. Also banshees pose a significant threat under incite, some wardudes absolutely don't want to be brain damaged even for one turn. So one banshee left alive can become a 16" interdiction zone for a wardude, which is fun (speaking from my experience with pLylyth). If I'm going to take stuff that only die and take some activations off the board, I want the cheapest stuff available. Striders fail at that. The pot was really great at this in mk2, since your jamming units became viable models on next turn. I cannot overstate how the nerf of the pot + lesser cost a lot to the jamming playstyle of pVayl Yep, valkyries are quite interesting with her. They don't help against spells, sprays, and lucky AoEs though. But they're one of our best options to protect her. But honestly the concurrence from gobbers is quite hard for them. Being behind a cloud does not always help much, but a lot of grunts with ranged options don't see behind clouds, and cloud (+ jammers) can prevent charge and force a trample, which combined with the possibility to cripple a system on dark sentinel, and/or talion against beasts, means you greatly increase your survival rate against melee. Valkyries will do nothing for that unfortunately I think a lot of people are still trying to play MkII Legion into MkIII rules. Honestly I could return the statement. Insisting that pVayl is still playable in her current state is looking at her with a mkII point of vue. She lost 75% of her game options in the new edition, and she. did. not. gain. a. single. new. game option on her card. It's not the same a pSaeryn for example, who lost a lot but then gained some, and finally someone found a nice effective list that combine her new skills with the best models we have currently, to make a new form of control list. I don't think we can make a new "mk3 playstyle" for pVayl from pure vacuum. But again, I'm a taker for any interesting pVayl list that make her do something unique only she can do !
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Jan 3, 2018 15:46:40 GMT
Well, to be fair, Vayl1 did gain "all models affected by Incite" and her feat became "all models" instead of "counting enemy models". The latter change was NEVER an issue for me before, as I always got to move everything I needed to, if not everything period. The change to Incite however is quite strong. Back before theme lists, I could run a relatively decent jamming screen for her with Hellmouths. But that time is over.
I do believe we could probably leave Vayl1 alone, but we'd need to address the lousy themes and many of the other models in Legion before she becomes viable.
They clearly didn't want her to be able to Feat and Incite safely at the same time. To maintain that, we'd need models that can use her feat successfully that actually can do damage worth their points and stay out of retaliation range. Typically, Typhon and Azrael and Neraphs and Angelius. Typhon and Azrael are only available in CotD, but then we are much better off playing another caster, someone who can deliver the infantry and the beasts in her army safely. Angelius and Neraphs simply don't do nearly enough damage without a damage buff, but Incite will never be able to be used on them without also losing your caster the next turn. Also, as soon as you are playing Angels and Neraphs, you are better off playing another caster who is better suited to deliver them, such as Fyanna2.
But again, eauc did an amazing job of highlighting exactly why Vayl1 has no real place right now. The rest of us are just kind of reiterating what he said.
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twity
Junior Strategist
Posts: 179
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Post by twity on Jan 3, 2018 16:07:00 GMT
If she had kept all of her old rules and gained the HUGE incite buff she would have been overpowered.
Just think of what you could do with a Mat 9, Pow 17 BE with Magic ability 9 and a pow 14 spray. I would wager it would be the most destructive model available in the game. Now run two in Oracles (a theme list designed with Vayl in mind imo).
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Post by Cheesebeard on Jan 3, 2018 16:50:29 GMT
I've just shelved Vayl1 - it's a lot easier than trying to get blood from a stone. There are other casters that yield much better results without having to go through all the hoops just to make them situationally functional. Themes, as mentioned, are a big part of this, but it's a broader and deeper issue than that.
It sucks, because Vayl1 is one of the casters that got me into the faction - and I think she was formerly a big part of Legion's repertoire - but she was dealt a really raw deal in losing so much in the transition. It's sad to see where she is now, and I hope that she get some TLC at some point soon because I miss her play, but I'm not going to handicap myself just because I have fond memories of her former self.
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Post by cainuslupus on Jan 3, 2018 17:09:16 GMT
If she had kept all of her old rules and gained the HUGE incite buff she would have been overpowered. Just think of what you could do with a Mat 9, Pow 17 BE with Magic ability 9 and a pow 14 spray. I would wager it would be the most destructive model available in the game. Now run two in Oracles (a theme list designed with Vayl in mind imo). It would be something along TEP? I believe she wouldn't be overpowered because of: - themes (no Typhoon, which is huge pain for her). - her survivability. What you're not taking into consideration is that she needs to be 9" from enemy, has 6" move (can't charge), Throne is Huge (about 5") base that need to kill stuff in meelee to have that sprays. And it's not even taking into consideration terrain AND enemy models because you need that place to land. People often forget how tricky Incite is. It's not debuff, it's aura around your caster. TBH you need CiD to check that but I don't see her breaking Thrones more than Lylyth1 can. And if she is OP in her Mk2 version (don't think so) she needs total rework, changing Incite and/or Rampager for other spells. Just nerfing her to the ground because Feora3 needed her spell is not good design practice but nothing new with PP.
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Jan 3, 2018 18:16:17 GMT
If replacing Incite, I say they swap Manifest Destiny and Incite from Thags to Vayl. It lets him play in Primal Terrors well (he should), encourages him to be in the think of things (he should), and fixes Vayls issue of dying if she ever casts it. If we really want to address the issue, gives her Signs and Portents instead. Let's her play into multiple themes well, fits her "oracular" fluff and large fury pool.
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Post by slaughtersun on Jan 3, 2018 18:37:20 GMT
Incite is fine... just give her her old feat back and be done with it.
If you consider the other caster with incite (i only remember one more...i may be wrong here) - feora3 - she gets a lot of movement and better stats in survivability. Along with choir she turns menoth jacks up to 11 not to mwntion her infantry and i'm not seeing her tearing up the meta right now...
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eauc
Junior Strategist
Posts: 209
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Post by eauc on Jan 3, 2018 18:48:21 GMT
Just think of what you could do with a Mat 9, Pow 17 BE with Magic ability 9 and a pow 14 spray. I would wager it would be the most destructive model available in the game. Now run two in Oracles (a theme list designed with Vayl in mind imo). I don't have to imagine actually, I tried it. It's fun. And it's POW18 melee by the way. A few of our warlocks already manage this or the like though. Still not as powerful as most other BEs in the game post-CID... I mean... WraithEngine under pSkarre (and Skarre is totally safe 12" behind the ARM25 huge base) ? Animantrax with pain givers ? Scyrah/cygnar BEs with nemo3/etc... ? Even good old TEP... If replacing Incite, I say they swap Manifest Destiny and Incite from Thags to Vayl. It lets him play in Primal Terrors well (he should), encourages him to be in the think of things (he should), and fixes Vayls issue of dying if she ever casts it. If we really want to address the issue, gives her Signs and Portents instead. Let's her play into multiple themes well, fits her "oracular" fluff and large fury pool. I like the idea and indeed it makes a lot of sense considering their respective profile. It would mean the definitive end of all that made pVayl fun in mk2 though. I would probably not play her much like this, since she looks quite static and brainless with Manifest Destiny or S&P. I certainly wouldn't want a Vlad1 in Legion What she could be, is the Legion's dreamer. But that would need adding a few more tricks to her bag
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Jan 3, 2018 18:58:53 GMT
Dunno, wouldn't both her feat and Leash and channelling still be dynamic/tricksy?
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Post by davycannonhound on Jan 3, 2018 19:36:11 GMT
Not entirely true. You can jam nicely with striders, and I imagine free-strike immun Grotesques can also be placed to be very annoying It is pretty true for beasts though. This guy knows what's up. I think a lot of people are still trying to play MkII Legion into MkIII rules. Maybe because nobody likes MkIII Legion? Honestly MkIII Legion is so haphazard I'm not even sure what its supposed to do. Or that it does ANYTHING well, aside from die and threaten.
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