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Post by davycannonhound on Nov 13, 2017 1:18:35 GMT
Hey there Khadorans. Legion player here. I often times find myself looking at other faction's stuff and saying "wow thats cool", or "man thats really good!" then looking at my faction's "version" (if you will) and saying ew. I often times nitpick things too, and talk about how bad stuff is etc. etc. However, I got to thinking... There's a saying that the grass is always greener on the other side. More than likely (not all of the time, but probably a lot), I'm looking at tools other people have, wishing I had access to them, and taking for granted things that my faction has that other people may not have.
So, I've decided to get an outside perspective from other players of different factions. What do y'all, as khador players, see in Legion's stable of pieces that make you think "hey I wish I had that"?
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Post by Armchair Warrior on Nov 13, 2017 2:17:07 GMT
17 DEF on all of my heavies on feat turn, with my stuff sprinting away when you miss. I’d like that.
+2 SPD, MAT and STR on all of my heavies...with Flight. And eyeless sight. Yeah, I’d really like that.
(Eyeless sight in general. And flight. Lots of flight. Khador needs a zeppelin.)
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Growl
Junior Strategist
Posts: 496
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Post by Growl on Nov 13, 2017 4:03:05 GMT
I like your question! I don't think it's really very easy to answer though, because I think giving some Khador units/Jacks sudden access to Legion's tech/abilities, or any other factions' for that matter would break the game. A Khador heavy with the speed/def/jank of a Legion warbeast would be terrifying! If you scaled down the ARM and boxes to make it more reasonable, then you would end up playing Legion in the end anyway. With regard to what I think is cool about Legion, I think the speed and hit and run ability of the faction is cool. The draconic theme, the pretty decent mix of shooting and melee units is good too. My limited understanding of them is that they are good at getting an alpha off, but may have trouble withstanding the counter, which in my opinion is sort of the opposite of Khador. I think it would be a lot of fun to try to figure out how to essentially decapitate an opponent's forces while keeping enough of my stuff safe for the following turns.
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Post by davycannonhound on Nov 13, 2017 6:24:28 GMT
I like your question! I don't think it's really very easy to answer though, because I think giving some Khador units/Jacks sudden access to Legion's tech/abilities, or any other factions' for that matter would break the game. A Khador heavy with the speed/def/jank of a Legion warbeast would be terrifying! If you scaled down the ARM and boxes to make it more reasonable, then you would end up playing Legion in the end anyway. With regard to what I think is cool about Legion, I think the speed and hit and run ability of the faction is cool. The draconic theme, the pretty decent mix of shooting and melee units is good too. My limited understanding of them is that they are good at getting an alpha off, but may have trouble withstanding the counter, which in my opinion is sort of the opposite of Khador. I think it would be a lot of fun to try to figure out how to essentially decapitate an opponent's forces while keeping enough of my stuff safe for the following turns. From what I understand we aren't as "cannon" as we used to be (we kept out glass nature though). We're more about precision strikes and pulling apart the army. Though, that usually involves the alpha strike anyway.
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Post by thebuoyancyofwater on Nov 13, 2017 7:57:28 GMT
Having helped my friend put a Twins list together I wish we had them or a caster like them! They seem like a lot of fun, very deep to learn properly and play an interesting game.
Cheers, Dave
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Post by smoothcriminal on Nov 13, 2017 11:34:05 GMT
Naga is the piece I wish I'd have and that's about it.
Legion is oversaturated with "I ignore rules" (bless, eyless sight, fly, serpentine) tech while Khador is quite the opposite of that. I'd still pick the Khador because of solid reliable stats, but it's a personal choice.
Legion is vulnerable to freezing and we have plenty of that.
Legion has no good answer for Khador gunline. Vlad1 + rockets destroys Legion.
The beast are all ehh whatever. Granted beastspam lists ARE better than Khador jackspam lists, but that's true about all hordes factions.
Throne is a big pain in the back for all melee infantry lists. Literally makes pike theme, which otherwise is fine, unplayable into Legion with 1-2x throne.
tl;dr Legion would be trouble if our most common list (Vlad1+rockets) wasn't so good against them, because against all other lists Legion is favored.
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Post by hocestbellum on Nov 13, 2017 11:51:02 GMT
Your access to movement shenanigans is fantastic. Much as I hate being on the receiving end of them, they are glorious.
As for specific things, I would take the Naga in a heartbeat. Khador has no magical shooting and only one limited way to get magical weapons generally. The Naga would be an awesome support piece in Khador.
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Post by Blargaliscious on Nov 13, 2017 14:41:14 GMT
What everyone else has said, plus Shredders and Scythians. I have a large Legion army in addition to Khador (and other stuff) and the Shredders and Scythians have always pulled their weight for me back in Mk2. I haven't had much chance to play Legion in Mk3, but I have to say I like the changes to the Shredder and the Scythian in Mk3 - what do the other Legion players have to say about them?
Is Shredder Spam still a thing in Mk3?
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Post by Havock on Nov 13, 2017 15:44:08 GMT
Grass is always greener on the other side etc.
The "power curve" right now might not be favoring Legion right now, but it's no worse -quite a bit better- than the posiiton both sides were in -albeit reversed- for a large part of mk2.
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Post by davycannonhound on Nov 13, 2017 15:54:12 GMT
Legion is vulnerable to freezing and we have plenty of that. Granted beastspam lists ARE better than Khador jackspam lists, but that's true about all hordes factions. I'll be honest this bothers me a lot (fluff wise). Like, Nyss are supposed to be able to walk around in their shorts in a blizzard, so why don't we have more cold damage immunity? There's like, a warlock and two units that have it. Thats hilarious to hear. We over in Legion are always talking about how much better y'all jackspam lists are compared to any beast spam we can attempt to throw out (mostly because of how cheap y'all's jacks are).
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Post by davycannonhound on Nov 13, 2017 15:57:45 GMT
What everyone else has said, plus Shredders and Scythians. I have a large Legion army in addition to Khador (and other stuff) and the Shredders and Scythians have always pulled their weight for me back in Mk2. I haven't had much chance to play Legion in Mk3, but I have to say I like the changes to the Shredder and the Scythian in Mk3 - what do the other Legion players have to say about them? Is Shredder Spam still a thing in Mk3? Our lessers aren't near as good as they were. Their animi do jack squat now. Shredders still have good offensive output thanks to flank, but they're used more as finishers and jammers than straight up spam (shredder + blight wasp spam is very viable with Abby2 though). As for the Scythean, I like it, but the community is fairly split on what they want from it. Currently the Throne does a better job. Some want the Scythean to lose thresher and pick up murderous. Some want it and the Soldier to swap animi... Some want the Scythean to pick up a chain attack... Its all over the place, really.
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Post by smoothcriminal on Nov 13, 2017 18:07:24 GMT
Having lessers at all is good. I would like to take 3x shooting lessers to support an infantry list for example, but I can't. Just Khador problems. Thats hilarious to hear. We over in Legion are always talking about how much better y'all jackspam lists are compared to any beast spam we can attempt to throw out (mostly because of how cheap y'all's jacks are). Well in our area beast lists are performing quite good. As I see it while jacks provide more boxes per point, beasts actually do more (way way more) stuff per point because of the way fury works. Khador caster can send 2 full jacks to do something (3 with empower) while others serve as ablative boxes and you can't cast much on top of that. Hordes can send eveything everywhere and buff them on top or cast your damage spells. Only Synergy casters or Cygnar with it's mass of free journeymen can somewhat keep up with this, H2 being the most obnoxious example of the power of the latter. Not to mention that beasts generally have baseline longer threat than jacks so you have to pay focus to get over that hurdle. From the competitive point of view I'd rather play Fyanna snake list than Karchev spam list for example. It was somewhat kept down with warlocks generally having worse kits than warcasters. Specifically in Legion arm cracking was huge problem. I remember at the start of mk3 Khador had a theme while hordes didn't and overpowered Karchev feat on top of it and just rolled through Legion and other hordes. But not anymore, expecially after everyone got their themes.
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Post by davycannonhound on Nov 13, 2017 18:11:26 GMT
Having lessers at all is good. I would like to take 3x shooting lessers to support an infantry list for example, but I can't. Just Khador problems. Thats hilarious to hear. We over in Legion are always talking about how much better y'all jackspam lists are compared to any beast spam we can attempt to throw out (mostly because of how cheap y'all's jacks are). Well in our area beast lists are performing quite good. As I see it while jacks provide more boxes per point, beasts actually do more (way way more) stuff per point because of the way fury works. Khador caster can send 2 full jacks to do something (3 with empower) while others serve as ablative boxes and you can't cast much on top of that. Hordes can send eveything everywhere and buff them on top or cast your damage spells. Only Synergy casters or Cygnar with it's mass of free journeymen can somewhat keep up with this, H2 being the most obnoxious example of the power of the latter. Not to mention that beasts generally have baseline longer threat than jacks so you have to pay focus to get over that hurdle. From the competitive point of view I'd rather play Fyanna snake list than Karchev spam list for example. It was somewhat kept down with warlocks generally having worse kits than warcasters. Specifically in Legion arm cracking was huge problem. I remember at the start of mk3 Khador had a theme while hordes didn't and overpowered Karchev feat on top of it and just rolled through Legion and other hordes. But not anymore, expecially after everyone got their themes. Interesting points! Despite being sister games, Warmachine and Hordes really do function differently just because of Focus vs. Fury. I never really get many chances to play against Warmachine (I mostly play my Circle friend) so I'm not super familiar with Warmachine mechanics. I mostly just looked at available abilities and the PC for those abilities and said "wow". I'm actually semi jealous of warcaster's focus ability. Sure, you cant buy and boost as much with your warjacks, but if all your warjacks die you don't lose any focus... And, the 5 pt. damage reduction doesn't require warjacks either, so you can theoretically keep functioning even after your entire battlegroup is gone.
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crimsyn
Junior Strategist
Posts: 389
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Post by crimsyn on Nov 13, 2017 19:50:51 GMT
I'll be honest this bothers me a lot (fluff wise). Like, Nyss are supposed to be able to walk around in their shorts in a blizzard, so why don't we have more cold damage immunity? There's like, a warlock and two units that have it. Wait... weren't you saying just the other day that damage immunities are OP and need to be nerfed? Now you want more of it?
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crimsyn
Junior Strategist
Posts: 389
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Post by crimsyn on Nov 13, 2017 20:07:54 GMT
The things in Legion that I think are nice are mainly Fyanna2 (though her feat wouldn't be that effective on Khador warjacks), Abby2, eyeless sight on everything, some of the beasts with useful animi, and just the benefits of the fury mechanic over the focus mechanic and the amount of fury management available in general in Hordes.
I feel like Khador may be one of Legion's harder matchups, but Legion isn't hugely underpowered and Khador isn't hugely overpowered by any stretch of the imagination.
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