|
Post by allinontrolls on Apr 12, 2018 3:55:30 GMT
Sorry for beeing unclear i mean madrak1 and eborka.
|
|
|
Post by grimgor on Apr 12, 2018 5:44:09 GMT
I'm playing actually Madrak BoH and eBorka, but this pairing isn't really good into cryx... especially skarre
|
|
gdnerd
Junior Strategist
Posts: 656
|
Post by gdnerd on Apr 12, 2018 5:46:45 GMT
It's possible. People have made Borka2 work into Cygnar, and I think this meatier version of Madrak will work into a lot of the beefier matchups. Borka2 hasn't clicked for me and I think Kolgrima is absurdly powerful so I'll probably stick with her for now.
|
|
gdnerd
Junior Strategist
Posts: 656
|
Post by gdnerd on Apr 16, 2018 5:57:11 GMT
Had another match into Rasheth this evening (though a weird Immortal list) and tried out spacing my models to prevent good BoCs and was pretty happy all things considered. The nature of his list (relatively slow virtually no poke) let me play triage and by the time he could feat after my feat he had lost the majority of his force. Due to some minor mispositionings on my part he was able to land a Gladiator on Madrak with no transfers (GK died to feat and the majority of his remaining forces) but I scrolled one away and tanked the other hit, killed it and ran everything to stop the assassination while guaranteeing my choice of scenario / attrition victory.
I think it's really valuable to play your A list into things you designed your B list to beat - who knows they might have a wonky pair where you feel forced to break from dogma, and it really helps pick apart your list and know what small decisions can change a matchup from bad to good.
|
|
|
Post by grimgor on Apr 16, 2018 17:53:38 GMT
The turtles might be a problem. Champions even pow 14 would struggle to got them, how do you manage it ?
|
|
|
Post by LoS Jaden on Apr 16, 2018 18:14:37 GMT
The turtles might be a problem. Champions even pow 14 would struggle to got them, how do you manage it ? Turtles have a really hard time with DEF 14 medium based infantry (16 not on Rasheth's feat turn), and they can't Auto KD them if B2B as well with their tail.
|
|
gdnerd
Junior Strategist
Posts: 656
|
Post by gdnerd on Apr 16, 2018 20:16:28 GMT
Exactly. Un-boosted guns have a hard time taking down champs. And when they DO hit, they're probably not doing so much that I can't just spread the love and heal them later with feat (you really won't hold feat to prevent charges against WoD Rasheth unless you're trying to land a run-> jackhammer kill on an Animantarax).
|
|
|
Post by allinontrolls on Apr 16, 2018 20:17:04 GMT
In my experience the biggest problem to face with champs is cont fire. They do not like to burn. I know their is no way I would switch the elder in this list but that's the main weakness in my opinion.
|
|
gdnerd
Junior Strategist
Posts: 656
|
Post by gdnerd on Apr 17, 2018 20:08:06 GMT
Yeah, Fire, E-leaps and other stuff that bypasses Sanguine Bond can be pretty annoying. Fire doubly so because when it does the damage you don't benefit from Krielstone armor. Thankfully I haven't seen too many fire wielders with Madrak in my pair, I can't remember if they were scared off by Kolgrima or just not in vogue.
Played yet ANOTHER Skorne game (I've been spending a lot of time thinking about Skorne because I'm not happy with Kolgrima in my current build dealing with Winds of Death). This time they played a quite novel Morghoul2 Winds of Death list which I found surprisingly potent. However they didn't have the same understanding of how the matchup was going to go and fed me pieces he didn't need to. He had a last ditch assassination attempt on Madrak where he could mortality and land a full rage turtle and maybe get a 3 man Riever CRA off. Didn't work out obviously.
There's probably some additional tuning that can be done to this list, I'm still not sold on Valka vs Fel Caller, and it might be that it's right to min the stone to afford both (I'm assuming no because I think min stone is pretty much never valid). I'll keep working on this for the forseeable future.
|
|
|
Post by profdikweed on Apr 17, 2018 23:40:27 GMT
Ive been running madrak in SotN fot auite a few tourneys now. My current iteration is this.
War Room Army
Trollblood - Madrak 1 SotN
Theme: Storm of the North 3 / 3 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army
Madrak Ironhide, Thornwood Chieftain - WB: +29 - Trollkin Runebearer - PC: 0 - Dire Troll Bomber - PC: 19 (Battlegroup Points Used: 19) - Dire Troll Mauler - PC: 15 (Battlegroup Points Used: 10)
Fell Caller Hero - PC: 0 Bog Trog Mist Speaker - PC: 4
Trollkin Champions - Leader & 4 Grunts: 16 - Skaldi Bonehammer - PC: 0 Krielstone Bearer & Stone Scribes - Leader & 5 Grunts: 9 - Northkin Elder - PC: 3 Northkin Bear Handler & Battle Bears - Bear Handler & 2 Battle Bears: 10 Northkin Bear Handler & Battle Bears - Bear Handler & 2 Battle Bears: 10 Northkin Raiders - Leader & 5 Grunts: 9 Northkin Fire Eaters - Leader, Trollkin Grunt, and Pyg Grunt: 7 Swamp Gobber Bellows Crew - Leader & 1 Grunt: 2
THEME: Storm of the North ---
GENERATED : 04/18/2018 09:32:34 BUILD ID : 2061.18-02-21
In general as much as I love valka, I generally would say fellcaller over valka everytime. I wish i vould fit in skaldi, runebearer, fch and Valka, but those four competing for the three free solo spots, in finding being able to warcry/march key targets (including madrak himself) is wayy too good to pass up.
My previous iteration of my list had a GK which I find is fantastic. My current beadt package Im just trying out, but im finding the GK to provide better presence and threat projection, just wish i could fit it in with the Bog Trog.
I'm going to try a double champs list like yours next and see how i go!
|
|
|
Post by Trollock on Apr 18, 2018 8:06:54 GMT
... There's probably some additional tuning that can be done to this list, I'm still not sold on Valka vs Fel Caller, and it might be that it's right to min the stone to afford both (I'm assuming no because I think min stone is pretty much never valid). I'll keep working on this for the forseeable future. The min stone is sort of the pre CID stone though. That was never full anyway and we played it back then. Sure it wasnt great, but it could be worked around... sort of... I myself wouldnt leave hone without a fell caller. not having pathfinder on turn 1 dictates your deployment way too much imo.
|
|
gdnerd
Junior Strategist
Posts: 656
|
Post by gdnerd on Apr 25, 2018 4:08:36 GMT
Okay, finally found some time to put aside to do the Madrak half (third?) of my Kingdomcon experience. I used the following list which I've posted here before:
Trollblood - Madrak Champions Theme: Storm of the North 3 / 3 Free Cards 74 / 75 Army
Madrak Ironhide, Thornwood Chieftain - WB: +29 - Trollkin Runebearer - PC: 0 - Glacier King - PC: 35 (Battlegroup Points Used: 29)
Fel Caller - PC: 0 Lanyssa Ryssyl, Nyss Sorceress - PC: 4
Northkin Bear Handler & Battle Bears - Bear Handler & 2 Battle Bears: 10 Northkin Bear Handler & Battle Bears - Bear Handler & 2 Battle Bears: 10 Krielstone Bearer & Stone Scribes - Leader & 5 Grunts: 9 - Northkin Elder - PC: 3 Trollkin Champions - Leader & 4 Grunts: 16 - Skaldi Bonehammer - PC: 0 Trollkin Champions - Leader & 4 Grunts: 16
I had waffled between Valka and a Fel Caller for a while before the tournament but I ultimately settled on the Fel Caller. Accuracy for def skewed bricks, more pathfinder and a pretty solid spray was worth the less damage, no countercharge and no magic weapons. Not to spoil things too much but I ended up pretty happy with the choice this weekend. Regardless, on to the matches!
Heat 2 Round 1 - Kallus Primal Terrors - Outlast (Hal Jenson)
First round of the second head I faced Hal who is part of the ATC WTC team this year. I had played him at the SoCal open last where he piloted Zaadesh into my Doom2 and had a pretty brutal time of it (turns out when Doom2 goes first there he really doesn't care about your cloudwall). To be honest I don't remember what the non-Kallus list was (Lylyth3?) but I knew I was going to play Madrak here. I won the roll-off and TBH I reliably walked him down from there. On his second turn he forgot to allocate a solo to his flag which meant he didn't have turn 7 CP tiebreak threat and he had to fight me on attrition. Turns out warspears and warmongers have a real terrible time against Madrak's feat. His Hellmouths were admittedly quite annoying (one behind a fog bank, another behind a house) but ultimately I was able to hold distance against them until I could kill them. By the end he had a couple Ogryn left and his Blightbringer and was down on scenario, used Kallus to score the flag and let me assassinate him. He thinks the matchup will be better once Chosen are out, I'm not entirely sure. I guess I'll find out when I clash with him next. That said with just Warspears and Warmongers I will pretty much control who hits first and with the output my models can put out that pretty much always means GG in my experience.
Heat 2 Round 2 - Zaadesh Imperial Warhost - Spread the Net (Alex Kosma)
Second round is a Dominate For Two special where I square off against my co-host (episode coming up on Kingdomcon this Thursday!). He's had a pretty weak record against me both at tournaments and at weekly play - I'm not sure what it is but my lists seem to always be the Rock to his Scissors. His other list is a fascinating Morghoul3 Arctuarii brew which on paper seems really scary for champs but they have a hard time killing the Glacier King so he went with Zaadesh. He won the roll-off and decided to go first. After the game we decided this was probably a mistake. Most of my army out-threats most of his with the help of Lanyssa and because I have scenario pressure he has to come into me and can't lurk behind his cloudwall. Plus I ambush a unit of bears into his home zone. I am able to get an attritional advantage while playing up on scenario, and score out rather than trying to kill him (you're going to see that this is a pretty consistent theme with how this list works).
Heat 3 Round 2 - Bradigus Bones of Orboros - Outlast (James Caisse)
Another player I had run into before, I played James at the I5 last year and my mispositioning allowing him to land a max synergy primaled gryphon on Doom2 which kept us from a X-1 shot at top 3. I was afraid going into this that I would make a fatal mistake and throw the game again. He drops Bradigus and I drop Madrak. I misunderstand his threat calculations and let him Hunter's Mark my Glacier King on a turn where I probably should have feated and pushed further but I wanted to hold my feat as long as possible. Still I had limited his landing zones to the point where he could only get one Woldwatcher and one Woldwarden on it. He ends up dropping the king to 18 boxes and kills 1 bear from each unit. I respond by killing the vast majority of his forces, feating, and getting up on scenario. He concedes after a very low odds assassination run goes off the rails. He had improperly ordered his Synergy timings and put the damage buff on a Woldwatcher who wasn't getting on my King, but I think even with both those buffs being applied correctly the King would have still lived. Admittedly he probably could have killed it on the next turn but the writing was on the walls. I believe he was correct to choose Bradigus as IIRC his other list was Baldur2 which would have just died slowly. I'm interested to see where the Tharn CID goes but right now I'm not sure what kind of Circle list can beat this Madrak shell.
Finals Round 3 - Baldur2 Bones of Orboros - Breakdown (Jon Vincent)
Well like I mentioned above, Baldur2 just dies slowly. I end up short of clock because I spend a lot of time tanking on a play where I run the Glacier King to Jackhammer down Megalith and be on top of Baldur without anything of consequence being able to walk to me through feat. I end up holding it for a turn and just absolutely crush one flank which forces him to flee to the other. Due to short clock I kept forgetting to activate a unit of bears that would have allowed me to end the game much faster (kill the one wyrd he has in the circle I'm holding so he can't keep contesting on my turn - I keep pushing it out with King gun). I end up winning with ~3 mins left. His main mistake IMO was parking his Wrath behind a large awkwardly shaped house where he could contest both the middle and a side but it couldn't really do anything. By the end I was just literally throwing all my champs in there so he couldn't clear it and get some kind of miracle bottom of 7 CP tiebreak scenario. I have been told the double Woldwrath version of the list is much worse for me but the way I see it my King out-threats both of his wolds, he can realistically only use Rock Wall to keep 1 safe and between champs the king and jackhammer I can easily kill one (and good god they will never kill the champs).
Final Thoughts
4-0 with Madrak is MUCH more respectable than my 4-4 record with Kolgrima. I think my increased mastery of my Madrak list over my Kolgrima one really shows, plus the lack of super exploitable weaknesses. I do wonder if the list has too narrow of a matchup profile or whether it was just a weird series of matchups (4 CoC, 2 Cryx, 2 Mercenaries). From doing list chicken I've recognized that persistent debuffing (deneghra) and fully boostable sprays (convergence / mercenaries) is a problem for a double champ brick. I hadn't considered it before but it is a problem. I don't think there's much I can do to shore up those matchups though, I think I just have to recognize my other list will have to resolve them. It may be that I swap Lanyssa for Eilish to handle debuffs better but as long as I have Kolgrima in the pair it feels unnecessary.
Outside of a big shift in the meta away from value bricks and onto accurate value gunlines that either have good aoes, good sprays or continuous fire, I think Madrak stays in the pair unblemished. I don't think there's really any mechanical tricks I have yet to master with the list, it's pretty straightforward. General fundamentals, planning out multiple turns ahead and understanding what pieces are important for what are all things I can work on though. I'll keep dojoing but for now expect more of the same.
|
|
gdnerd
Junior Strategist
Posts: 656
|
Post by gdnerd on May 15, 2018 0:18:02 GMT
Didn't realize this thread had been dead since Kingdomcon haha.
Got back from the Seattle Open last night, playing the exact same pair. Was going to play a different version of Kolgrima but Gregory Schadt was there with Nemo3 and I didn't want to run into him with my pants down so I stuck to my Storm Troll variant. As with last time I'll post the Kolgrima bits in the Kolgrima thread.
Qualifier Round 2 - Baldur2 Bones of Orboros - Breakdown (Kraig)
Kraig had Baldur1 and Baldur2 in Bones bricks, I knew I was going to play Madrak. I figured he was going to play Baldur1 but he decided to go with Baldur2. This was a 0 Woldwrath build so I felt pretty unthreatened. Going first let me bully the board and I got into him with my feat such that he felt the need to crush a flank and try and sweep back. His brick really couldn't handle the Even Ground champs and he was unable to maintain CP parity. Eventually I won on CP tiebreaks on bottom of 7.
Kraig had some good moves and did some smart shield guards but I don't think he quite understood the raw output a Glacier King with Jackhammer backed up with champs will put out until after it took his brick apart. People whose opinions I really respect keep telling me Baldur2 should wipe the floor with me but I've played a number of REALLY good Baldur2 players and haven't yet felt out of my depth.
Qualifier Round 3 - Magnus2 Irregulars - Pit II (Cory)
Quick spoilers, Cory won the whole event so that should give you an idea of how this game went down. I dropped Madrak expecting Ossrum after how badly Jeff spanked me with him at Kingdomcon but he played Magnus. I think Kolgrima would have been a better choice into either but I wanted to try Madrak into Ossrum and see if it was as bad as I had thought. He went first and aggressively pushed into me turn 2. He forgot that I had Glacier King Animus up and his Nomad blocking LOS to Magnus got knocked down, giving me an assassination that would kill him if I rolled 3 points of damage above average across 4 attacks. I pulled the trigger and left him on 5 (womp womp). Eventually he killed the Glacier King. A flank collapsed to the point where I stopped being able to contest him and he could contest me. I lose on bottom of 7 with 2 cps.
Qualifier Round 4 - Anamag Blighted Terrors - Recon II (Philip)
This by far was the funniest game of the tournament. As soon as I walk up to the table my oponent swaggers up and says
"Here's how it's going to go. You can't play Madrak into Anamag so you're going to play Kolgrima and I'll play Anamag"
I just give him an incredulous look and proceed to windmill slam Madrak. Top of 2 the Glacier King is in the middle of the board and only a couple ogryn can even walk to fight him. He decides to try and clear other things and pulls the trigger on going after the Glacier King the next turn with feat but leaves it on 20. I kill the Blight Bringer and all of his Warmongers healing up past that point, and crush a flank while lightly contesting his. We play it out to its logical conclusion and I score out on turn 5-6, I can't quite remember.
Finals Round 1 - Borka2 Storm of the North - Standoff (Jaden)
Last game of Madrak1 of the weekend. I assumed Jaden would drop Kolgrima Band of Heroes because Borka2 would not have a feat. I think in the end he made the right choice, the Fire Eaters did a LOT of work. Jaden going first actually made this even more of a thing as he got most of the Glacier King and half a unit of champs on top of 2. I baited his Mauler in when he didn't really have other good pieces to send in - it would do 20 damage on average to my 28 current boxes. He gets the Glacier King and I concede. If the Glacier King lived, he was quickly running out of pieces to kill it ant I was achieving parity on scenario and threatening to start to close out a flank and go up. So, in that sense, I think I made the right move and the dice just weren't with me in that instance.
There's still some play mistakes, I could have positioned champs better to take the Fire Eaters, and I think I could have regular deployed at least one set of bears to keep central and dissuade Raider jam. Letting him Hunter's Mark the Glacier King top of 2 was definitely objectively incorrect as well and would have saved me some pain.
Final Thoughts
All in all not terrible not amazing. I only lost to 1st, 2nd, and 3rd all weekend which tells me with some better play and some better luck I could see myself on the podium in the near future. There's a lot to unpack with Jaden's game, I think I really wasn't mentally prepared for that Borka2 list being dropped into me and I made some poor moves in my confusion. Both of my Madrak losses came when I was going second, I also want to try and unpack whether that was my play not having a good strategy for dealing with lists that can really get into me top of 2 or whether it was my list failing me there (do I need to go back to raiders or fire eaters?). I see more dojoing in my future before LnL.
|
|
Arcaux
Junior Strategist
Posts: 724
|
Post by Arcaux on May 15, 2018 9:08:45 GMT
Thanks for the write ups.
In regards to the Anamag game it's funny how often players experience of a matchup is so different. He's obviously played it against some local opponent and though Madrak stood no chance, but things like positioning or feating on a different turn can change a matchup so much.
|
|
|
Post by allinontrolls on May 15, 2018 12:46:48 GMT
In my experience a lot of non troll players characterize our list just by caster. They forget that madrak1 boh is a completely different list then madrak1 sotn. Or that madrak1 with gk is different then a bomber mauler battlegroup.
|
|