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Post by far2casual on Nov 6, 2017 11:09:51 GMT
I've said from the start that Denny1 was not the real problem in the Denny1 GF build. As pointed before, Denny1 was like that from the start of the MK3 and never won anything major before GF. Those two nerfs are more than enough to bring her in line, and PP should have a strong look at other things instead.
I've brought Denny1 GF at the WTC and played 4 out of my 6 games with her where she just ran along my table edge to avoid getting shot to death while my army was playing the game on his own, with maybe a parasite or two on 5 turns, and maybe a feat on 2 models every time. I won 3 out of those 4 games, only losing one to the admirably piloted Caine3 from Trevor Attridge.
I would probably have switched my caster anyway, so I'll make it clear again : nerf Denny1 all you want, we'll still rock the world with GF with either Coven, Denny2, Asphy1, Terminus ...
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zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
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Post by zich on Nov 6, 2017 11:19:56 GMT
What if - bear with me for a second here - the problem lies in multiple parts of the puzzle?
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Post by mcdermott on Nov 6, 2017 16:30:18 GMT
Again, statistically significant numbers matter. What % of the faction WASNT running denny1 ghost fleet in a pairing? instances of 1 or 2 players running a single different caster are statistically insignificant and its stupid to draw conclusions based on that. If she isn't the problem why was she 75% of ghost fleet lists?
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Deller
Junior Strategist
I’m on a Boat
Posts: 605
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Post by Deller on Nov 7, 2017 0:38:04 GMT
Again, statistically significant numbers matter. What % of the faction WASNT running denny1 ghost fleet in a pairing? instances of 1 or 2 players running a single different caster are statistically insignificant and its stupid to draw conclusions based on that. If she isn't the problem why was she 75% of ghost fleet lists? Because she compliments the broken theme force best? Again, your statically significant numbers only prove the COMBINATION of Denehgra1 & Ghost Fleet is a problem. None of your evidence prove the problem is Deneghra1 herself. If Deneghra1 herself is the problem why did 97% of players play her in Ghost Fleet. Other casters are capable of winning with Ghost Fleet, in fact the WTC winning team played Coven Fleet. If Deneghra1 is so broken, why did only a single player bring her out of theme? Could it be that outside of the broken theme force she’s not actually that good? Nobody considered pairing the most popular caster with the most popular theme force, Dark Host? Every complaint you have regarding Deneghra1 is only occurring off the back of Ghost Fleet. If if you want real evidence that Deneghra1 is utterly broken, and it’s not just a Ghost Fleet you’re going to need some Data points of her destroying the meta without Ghost Fleet, which you don’t have. Because she’s not actually as broken as you claim she is. You claim all the evidence of other casters winning is insignificant, but at least data backing my claim actually exists. How many tournament wins exist where people won with Deneghra1 out of Ghost Fleet? One? Where’s the data to back your claim that Deneghra1 is broken without Ghost Fleet? I’d love to see it
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Post by macdaddy on Nov 7, 2017 3:08:51 GMT
*cracks open door* Denny 1 is oppressive *closes door and runs*
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Post by Cryptix on Nov 7, 2017 3:12:04 GMT
*cracks open door* Denny 1 is boring *closes door and runs* FTFY.
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Post by mcdermott on Nov 7, 2017 3:50:09 GMT
Again, statistically significant numbers matter. What % of the faction WASNT running denny1 ghost fleet in a pairing? instances of 1 or 2 players running a single different caster are statistically insignificant and its stupid to draw conclusions based on that. If she isn't the problem why was she 75% of ghost fleet lists? Because she compliments the broken theme force best? Again, your statically significant numbers only prove the COMBINATION of Denehgra1 & Ghost Fleet is a problem. None of your evidence prove the problem is Deneghra1 herself. If Deneghra1 herself is the problem why did 97% of players play her in Ghost Fleet. Other casters are capable of winning with Ghost Fleet, in fact the WTC winning team played Coven Fleet. If Deneghra1 is so broken, why did only a single player bring her out of theme? Could it be that outside of the broken theme force she’s not actually that good? Nobody considered pairing the most popular caster with the most popular theme force, Dark Host? Every complaint you have regarding Deneghra1 is only occurring off the back of Ghost Fleet. If if you want real evidence that Deneghra1 is utterly broken, and it’s not just a Ghost Fleet you’re going to need some Data points of her destroying the meta without Ghost Fleet, which you don’t have. Because she’s not actually as broken as you claim she is. You claim all the evidence of other casters winning is insignificant, but at least data backing my claim actually exists. How many tournament wins exist where people won with Deneghra1 out of Ghost Fleet? One? Where’s the data to back your claim that Deneghra1 is broken without Ghost Fleet? I’d love to see it There is stronger statistical evidence that its a pairing with denny1 doing it than that its anything else. Wraith engine is probably the next likeliest culprit but you've got precisely dick all, statistically, for your claim.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Nov 7, 2017 4:16:41 GMT
Again, statistically significant numbers matter. What % of the faction WASNT running denny1 ghost fleet in a pairing? instances of 1 or 2 players running a single different caster are statistically insignificant and its stupid to draw conclusions based on that. If she isn't the problem why was she 75% of ghost fleet lists? Because she compliments the broken theme force best? Again, your statically significant numbers only prove the COMBINATION of Denehgra1 & Ghost Fleet is a problem. None of your evidence prove the problem is Deneghra1 herself. If Deneghra1 herself is the problem why did 97% of players play her in Ghost Fleet. Other casters are capable of winning with Ghost Fleet, in fact the WTC winning team played Coven Fleet. If Deneghra1 is so broken, why did only a single player bring her out of theme? Could it be that outside of the broken theme force she’s not actually that good? Nobody considered pairing the most popular caster with the most popular theme force, Dark Host? Every complaint you have regarding Deneghra1 is only occurring off the back of Ghost Fleet. If if you want real evidence that Deneghra1 is utterly broken, and it’s not just a Ghost Fleet you’re going to need some Data points of her destroying the meta without Ghost Fleet, which you don’t have. Because she’s not actually as broken as you claim she is. You claim all the evidence of other casters winning is insignificant, but at least data backing my claim actually exists. How many tournament wins exist where people won with Deneghra1 out of Ghost Fleet? One? Where’s the data to back your claim that Deneghra1 is broken without Ghost Fleet? I’d love to see it Denny1 in Slaughter Fleet is pretty damn awful to play against. Remember all of those Denny double satyxis lists from the start of Mk3? Can't be shot effectively, fast enough that they WILL get the alpha strike, and with Denny's ability to neuter attempts to punch back...it's pretty gross. Not quite as gross as Denny1 ghost fleet, but I don't think that's the bar we should be measuring oppressive lists by.
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Deller
Junior Strategist
I’m on a Boat
Posts: 605
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Post by Deller on Nov 7, 2017 5:08:59 GMT
There is stronger statistical evidence that its a pairing with denny1 doing it than that its anything else. Wraith engine is probably the next likeliest culprit but you've got precisely dick all, statistically, for your claim. That evidence is what exactly? The evidence that Deneghra1’s win rate spiked when the theme force released? The fact that she sees no play outside of it? The fact that others that play the theme are successful? As far as I’m aware you’re the one with 0 evidence for your claim. You’ve provided nothing. All of your evidence only points to Deneghra being a problem in theme. You have “dick all” to claim she’s broken out of theme. Denny1 in Slaughter Fleet is pretty damn awful to play against. Remember all of those Denny double satyxis lists from the start of Mk3? Can't be shot effectively, fast enough that they WILL get the alpha strike, and with Denny's ability to neuter attempts to punch back...it's pretty gross. Not quite as gross as Denny1 ghost fleet, but I don't think that's the bar we should be measuring oppressive lists by. No? I don’t really remember any Deneghra1 Double Satyxis dominating anything at the start of Mark3. I do remember Coven & Skarre1 double Satyxis dominating rather well though. This whole Deneghra1 has been dominating Mark3 since the beginning is completely revisionist. Before Ghost Fleet Deneghra1 was solidly below Coven, Scaverous, & Skarre1 powerwise. Threads littered the old Cryx forums with titles along the lines of “Is Coven our only answer to the gunline meta?” or “Is Coven our only competitive option?”. I remember the times pretty vividly when everyone thought Cryx was a bottom 4 faction with Trolls, Skorne, & Minions because their only competitive caster was Coven, and they didn’t have a great competitive list pair. Weirdly enough the now utterly OP Deneghra1 existed during that time not being oppressive. I wonder what changed
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Post by Cryptix on Nov 7, 2017 5:44:30 GMT
Don't bring my caster into this he's done nothing wrong.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Nov 7, 2017 6:17:55 GMT
There is stronger statistical evidence that its a pairing with denny1 doing it than that its anything else. Wraith engine is probably the next likeliest culprit but you've got precisely dick all, statistically, for your claim. That evidence is what exactly? The evidence that Deneghra1’s win rate spiked when the theme force released? The fact that she sees no play outside of it? The fact that others that play the theme are successful? As far as I’m aware you’re the one with 0 evidence for your claim. You’ve provided nothing. All of your evidence only points to Deneghra being a problem in theme. You have “dick all” to claim she’s broken out of theme. Denny1 in Slaughter Fleet is pretty damn awful to play against. Remember all of those Denny double satyxis lists from the start of Mk3? Can't be shot effectively, fast enough that they WILL get the alpha strike, and with Denny's ability to neuter attempts to punch back...it's pretty gross. Not quite as gross as Denny1 ghost fleet, but I don't think that's the bar we should be measuring oppressive lists by. No? I don’t really remember any Deneghra1 Double Satyxis dominating anything at the start of Mark3. I do remember Coven & Skarre1 double Satyxis dominating rather well though. This whole Deneghra1 has been dominating Mark3 since the beginning is completely revisionist. Before Ghost Fleet Deneghra1 was solidly below Coven, Scaverous, & Skarre1 powerwise. Threads littered the old Cryx forums with titles along the lines of “Is Coven our only answer to the gunline meta?” or “Is Coven our only competitive option?”. I remember the times pretty vividly when everyone thought Cryx was a bottom 4 faction with Trolls, Skorne, & Minions because their only competitive caster was Coven, and they didn’t have a great competitive list pair. Weirdly enough the now utterly OP Deneghra1 existed during that time not being oppressive. I wonder what changed Well, just to start: Gunlines got more answers and became less prevalent SR 2017 put a big ol' piece of LOS blocking terrain in the middle of the table, and increased terrain relevance in general Banes got buffed so that they're nigh-impossible not to deliver effectively Several oppressive casters in other factions got nerfed. Among other things. Not to mention that Denny1 anything becomes tons better when you can run it with a hard gunline counter like Coven Dark Host.
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zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
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Post by zich on Nov 7, 2017 9:03:13 GMT
Because she compliments the broken theme force best? Again, your statically significant numbers only prove the COMBINATION of Denehgra1 & Ghost Fleet is a problem. None of your evidence prove the problem is Deneghra1 herself. If Deneghra1 herself is the problem why did 97% of players play her in Ghost Fleet. Other casters are capable of winning with Ghost Fleet, in fact the WTC winning team played Coven Fleet. If Deneghra1 is so broken, why did only a single player bring her out of theme? Could it be that outside of the broken theme force she’s not actually that good? Nobody considered pairing the most popular caster with the most popular theme force, Dark Host? Every complaint you have regarding Deneghra1 is only occurring off the back of Ghost Fleet. If if you want real evidence that Deneghra1 is utterly broken, and it’s not just a Ghost Fleet you’re going to need some Data points of her destroying the meta without Ghost Fleet, which you don’t have. Because she’s not actually as broken as you claim she is. You claim all the evidence of other casters winning is insignificant, but at least data backing my claim actually exists. How many tournament wins exist where people won with Deneghra1 out of Ghost Fleet? One? Where’s the data to back your claim that Deneghra1 is broken without Ghost Fleet? I’d love to see it Denny1 in Slaughter Fleet is pretty damn awful to play against. Remember all of those Denny double satyxis lists from the start of Mk3? Can't be shot effectively, fast enough that they WILL get the alpha strike, and with Denny's ability to neuter attempts to punch back...it's pretty gross. Not quite as gross as Denny1 ghost fleet, but I don't think that's the bar we should be measuring oppressive lists by. Played against that list and it is pretty damn gross. Even if you get the alpha (which I did) and roll like an absolute madman (which I sure as hell did) it still outputs just so many attacks that turn into extremely strong attacks under Denny1 and can kill pretty much anything in the game rather trivially. It's almost as bad as DennyFleet, but in a very different way.
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Post by Gamingdevil on Nov 7, 2017 11:40:59 GMT
I think the reason that Denny 1 GF is so popular is because, besides the recursion, the stats on Revenants are pretty shitty and while Denny is the very best at polishing turds, she doesn't deliver her army well. Put those 2 together and you get an army that delivers itself and then gets buffed to almost god levels. Then there was also the, circumstantial, bonus of there being a few strong guns in the theme coupled with Denny's auto-knockdown and there being an added strong control effect on the feat. Denny was always a drag to play against, for everyone, not necessarily because she's over the top, but because she shuts you down and debuffs you so hard that it sucks the fun out of it. Then the theme force adds some more negative play elements (Incorporeal and hard to deal with recursion) to the mix and you get a community outcry. The other casters are popular in Ghost Fleet because they add different elements of their own: - Asphyxious 1 has similar debuff levels as Denny 1 and has some pseudo-protection in the clouds. He doesn't have a strong control feat and his assassination game is slightly weaker. He is also popular because he has an excellent answer into the most common GF, and arguably most common build in general, that Denny doesn't have: Hellfire.
- Terminus and Goreshade 3 push the recursion even farther and the former again has a big advantage into the Denny GF build, is also virtually immune to the ranged assassination. The latter brings his own strong assassination game.
- Denny 2 has some mild debuffs to shore up for the weak pirate stats, but again a great answer into the mirror: Hellmouth and Marked for Death.
- Coven has a lot of shenanigans in general and the feat makes it virtually impossible for the pirates to not smash into your lines, which means one of the common strategies, keep shooting them to push them off the table, doesn't work. The egregious Stealth and added shooting protection from the feat again make them valuable in the mirror.
I would say that arguably Denny complements the theme force the best and the popularity of the other casters is partly because of this: because they have a leg up in the mirror and because Denny 1 would be well prepared for.
The Satyxis and Bane themes also deliver themselves well, but not to the same extent of Ghost Fleet, which is, in my opinion why they weren't seen as a problem. They also don't have a strong ranged assassination game, which the combination of Scourge with Ghost Shot does.
To summarise: I think the current nerf to Denny 1 is fair (even though Black Talons is virtually useless), she wasn't necessarily a problem outside of Ghost Fleet, but she was very good in many aspects of the game and seen as very oppressive. Whether or not Ghost Fleet is a problem by itself, is a separate discussion.
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Post by macdaddy on Nov 7, 2017 12:15:30 GMT
*cracks open door* Denny 1 is boring and oppressive *closes door and runs* FTFY. [ Fixed it again
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Post by far2casual on Nov 7, 2017 12:34:51 GMT
Denny1 will surely get boring quickly if PP listens to all complaints asking for every single tool of her kit to get nerfed to oblivion.
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