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Post by grotsnik on Nov 4, 2017 0:51:43 GMT
I just hope PP doesnt nerf her more,there is still quite a bit of whining about her in the CID forum (which was expected)
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Deller
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Post by Deller on Nov 4, 2017 5:38:00 GMT
No amount of Turd polishing skills is going to help Deneghra1 as she is. She no longer has a place in competitive builds. She no longer wins the Ghost Fleet mirror match against Asphyxious1, Terminus, or the new Deneghra2. They all out Attrition her thanks to RFP spells, and she’s lost her ability to effectively assassinate any of them. She no longer wins vs Coven, as she’s just going to get controlled off the board. Thanks to Satyxis Changes Cryx no longer as any caster independent RFP that works on undead outside of Darragh & Ragman. You now need an RFP caster or Coven to take down Ghost Fleet. So Cryx’s best answer to Ghost Fleet is now Ghost Fleet, and Deneghra1 Ghost Fleet now loses to the other top 4 Ghost Fleet Casters. Deneghra1 was seeing 0play in anything other than Ghost Fleet before a nerf, there’s nothing to suggest that’s going to change. There’s no room for Deneghra1 in a pairing anymore. So the most powerful caster in the game is not ZOMG anymore? Seems good for the health of the game. Coven was always more powerful then Deneghra1 since the beginning of this edition. That’s why they were the go to caster before Theme Forces, and why they’ll probably become one of the two go to casters to replace Deneghra1 at the helm of Ghost Fleet along with Deneghra2 provided she comes out of CID as fun to play as she currently is. Since there’s a half dozen other casters that can run a competitive Dark Host to pair with them I don’t expect this will have any effect on Cryx overall, especially after listening to Sascha on Chasing the Dragonfather go through his WTC run where he basically described how he wasn’t really afraid of anything he saw on any team he was up against with the Coven GF / Goreshade3 DH pair. Deneghra1 was never the problem with Ghost Fleet. The problems with Ghost Fleet have still not been addressed. It will continue to be meta bending when played. The only thing from this CID that’s going to reduce the amount of Ghost Fleet being played is the fact that most tournaments are 2 lists only and Cryx now has 4 amazing and 2 okay theme forces to choose from.
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Post by mcdermott on Nov 4, 2017 22:03:29 GMT
If denny1 wasn't the problem why was she such a huge % choice in ghost fleets wins? Evidence doesn't seem to back up your claim.
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Deller
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Post by Deller on Nov 5, 2017 11:41:40 GMT
If denny1 wasn't the problem why was she such a huge % choice in ghost fleets wins? Evidence doesn't seem to back up your claim. Just because Deneghra1 runs the degenerate theme force the best doesn't mean the theme force isn't degenerate without her. In fact all the evidence DOES point to the fact that the problem is larger than Deneghra1. Deneghra1 may have made up the overwhelming majority of Ghost Fleets wins, but at events like the WTC, she had one of the lowest win rates with the theme force. Deneghra1 Ghost Fleet 65.55% win rate Deneghra2 Ghost Fleet 80% win rate Coven Ghost Fleet 88.89% win rate Terminus Ghost Fleet 66.67% win rate Asphyxious1 Ghost Fleet 53.33% win rate Popularity =/= power. Ghost Fleet has been doing just fine, and sometimes even better without Deneghra1. Deneghra1 was NOT tearing up the meta in the first 6 months of Mark3 before Ghost Fleet existed, in fact she saw very little play despite being exactly the same as she currently is. I'd like to propose back. What evidence do YOU have, that the problem is in fact Deneghra1. Deneghra1 was practically nowhere to be seen competitively in Mark3 before Ghost Fleet became a thing, almost every Cryx player was playing a combination of Scaverous, Skarre1, & Coven. Where are the huge % of Deneghra1 wins without Ghost Fleet that would suggest Deneghra1 is majorly problematic? Why does Deneghra1 Ghost Fleet tearing up the competitive scene automatically mean the problem is Deneghra1, and not Rengrave, Wraith Engines, Blackbane's, or Revenent Crew? Why is it not possible to consider that the problem might not be the Deneghra1 half of the equation. Just looking at the data from the WTC you see that 33/34 Deneghra1 lists were in Ghost Fleet. Deneghra1 was played in Ghost Fleet 97% of the time she was taken. 33/43 Ghost Fleet lists were Deneghra1. Ghost Fleet players chose to put Deneghra1 at the helm only 76.74% of the time. That to me looks more like Deneghra1 is crutching on Ghost Fleet more than Ghost Fleet is crutching on Deneghra1, especially when the 10 Ghost Fleet players that didn't put Deneghra1 at the helm of their Ghost Fleet list ended up with a 68.57% win rate overall, a rate that's higher than the Deneghra1 Fleet player's win rate. So I'll ask you, what is your evidence to the claim that Cryx's problem is actually Deneghra1? Because when a busted Theme Force gets released that propels a caster to the stratosphere who wasn't winning anything beforehand, I tend to think the problem is less the caster, and more the busted Theme Force.
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npe
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Post by npe on Nov 5, 2017 15:07:15 GMT
That's a bit of hyperbole. Both Denny2 infernal machines or black industries are very good counters to Ghost Fleet and if the new CID leaves "sucker" on the Priestess the ghost shot assassination trick will go away too in any theme that allows her. I'm actually kind of happy the Gore3 is now the official ghost shot assassination caster. His feat and playstyle are a lot more fun than Denny1's. Funny thing. I just finished up my Goreshade3 to run the ghost fleet just a few days before the CID hit. I never really cared for playing Deneghra1 and wanted someone both more fun and more thematic. That's how to play.
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Post by Azuresun on Nov 5, 2017 21:52:15 GMT
Yeeaahh... Deller is probably correct though. Deneghra still looks fine, but not a top contender. She is a debuff bot now, and almost lost her depth.. and dare I say, fun. "Deneghra1" "Fun" Huh, never seen those words in the same sentence before today.
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Post by Cryptix on Nov 5, 2017 22:59:02 GMT
Yeeaahh... Deller is probably correct though. Deneghra still looks fine, but not a top contender. She is a debuff bot now, and almost lost her depth.. and dare I say, fun. "Deneghra1" "Fun" Huh, never seen those words in the same sentence before today. I'd never though I'd agree with you, but I never could understand how people enjoy piloting Deneghra. Literally the least interesting Cryx caster.
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d3z
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Post by d3z on Nov 6, 2017 0:33:58 GMT
If denny1 wasn't the problem why was she such a huge % choice in ghost fleets wins? Evidence doesn't seem to back up your claim. Just because Deneghra1 runs the degenerate theme force the best doesn't mean the theme force isn't degenerate without her. In fact all the evidence DOES point to the fact that the problem is larger than Deneghra1. Deneghra1 may have made up the overwhelming majority of Ghost Fleets wins, but at events like the WTC, she had one of the lowest win rates with the theme force. Deneghra1 Ghost Fleet 65.55% win rate Deneghra2 Ghost Fleet 80% win rate Coven Ghost Fleet 88.89% win rate Terminus Ghost Fleet 66.67% win rate Asphyxious1 Ghost Fleet 53.33% win rate Popularity =/= power. Ghost Fleet has been doing just fine, and sometimes even better without Deneghra1. Deneghra1 was NOT tearing up the meta in the first 6 months of Mark3 before Ghost Fleet existed, in fact she saw very little play despite being exactly the same as she currently is. I'd like to propose back. What evidence do YOU have, that the problem is in fact Deneghra1. Deneghra1 was practically nowhere to be seen competitively in Mark3 before Ghost Fleet became a thing, almost every Cryx player was playing a combination of Scaverous, Skarre1, & Coven. Where are the huge % of Deneghra1 wins without Ghost Fleet that would suggest Deneghra1 is majorly problematic? Why does Deneghra1 Ghost Fleet tearing up the competitive scene automatically mean the problem is Deneghra1, and not Rengrave, Wraith Engines, Blackbane's, or Revenent Crew? Why is it not possible to consider that the problem might not be the Deneghra1 half of the equation. Just looking at the data from the WTC you see that 33/34 Deneghra1 lists were in Ghost Fleet. Deneghra1 was played in Ghost Fleet 97% of the time she was taken. 33/43 Ghost Fleet lists were Deneghra1. Ghost Fleet players chose to put Deneghra1 at the helm only 76.74% of the time. That to me looks more like Deneghra1 is crutching on Ghost Fleet more than Ghost Fleet is crutching on Deneghra1, especially when the 10 Ghost Fleet players that didn't put Deneghra1 at the helm of their Ghost Fleet list ended up with a 68.57% win rate overall, a rate that's higher than the Deneghra1 Fleet player's win rate. So I'll ask you, what is your evidence to the claim that Cryx's problem is actually Deneghra1? Because when a busted Theme Force gets released that propels a caster to the stratosphere who wasn't winning anything beforehand, I tend to think the problem is less the caster, and more the busted Theme Force. Interesting read. My thoughts are: 1) I think most people would agree that Denny1 was by far the Ghost Fleet build most prepared for/practiced against. Kind of makes going through the stats pointless, there's no evidence either way. 2) There's no point in trying to examine which element was the problem in the Denny1/Ghost Fleet combination that has drawn lots of feedback - Denny1 is the solution. Other casters in ghost fleet haven't drawn the same feedback yet, and may never draw it after people spend more time breaking apart and preparing for these other casters. I think that even if PP hadn't declared that they wouldn't change Ghost Fleet, they still would have tried to tone down as little as possible whilst satisfying the community, in this case hurting 1 caster instead of many.
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Deller
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Post by Deller on Nov 6, 2017 2:21:36 GMT
Just because Deneghra1 runs the degenerate theme force the best doesn't mean the theme force isn't degenerate without her. In fact all the evidence DOES point to the fact that the problem is larger than Deneghra1. Deneghra1 may have made up the overwhelming majority of Ghost Fleets wins, but at events like the WTC, she had one of the lowest win rates with the theme force. Deneghra1 Ghost Fleet 65.55% win rate Deneghra2 Ghost Fleet 80% win rate Coven Ghost Fleet 88.89% win rate Terminus Ghost Fleet 66.67% win rate Asphyxious1 Ghost Fleet 53.33% win rate Popularity =/= power. Ghost Fleet has been doing just fine, and sometimes even better without Deneghra1. Deneghra1 was NOT tearing up the meta in the first 6 months of Mark3 before Ghost Fleet existed, in fact she saw very little play despite being exactly the same as she currently is. I'd like to propose back. What evidence do YOU have, that the problem is in fact Deneghra1. Deneghra1 was practically nowhere to be seen competitively in Mark3 before Ghost Fleet became a thing, almost every Cryx player was playing a combination of Scaverous, Skarre1, & Coven. Where are the huge % of Deneghra1 wins without Ghost Fleet that would suggest Deneghra1 is majorly problematic? Why does Deneghra1 Ghost Fleet tearing up the competitive scene automatically mean the problem is Deneghra1, and not Rengrave, Wraith Engines, Blackbane's, or Revenent Crew? Why is it not possible to consider that the problem might not be the Deneghra1 half of the equation. Just looking at the data from the WTC you see that 33/34 Deneghra1 lists were in Ghost Fleet. Deneghra1 was played in Ghost Fleet 97% of the time she was taken. 33/43 Ghost Fleet lists were Deneghra1. Ghost Fleet players chose to put Deneghra1 at the helm only 76.74% of the time. That to me looks more like Deneghra1 is crutching on Ghost Fleet more than Ghost Fleet is crutching on Deneghra1, especially when the 10 Ghost Fleet players that didn't put Deneghra1 at the helm of their Ghost Fleet list ended up with a 68.57% win rate overall, a rate that's higher than the Deneghra1 Fleet player's win rate. So I'll ask you, what is your evidence to the claim that Cryx's problem is actually Deneghra1? Because when a busted Theme Force gets released that propels a caster to the stratosphere who wasn't winning anything beforehand, I tend to think the problem is less the caster, and more the busted Theme Force. Interesting read. My thoughts are: 1) I think most people would agree that Denny1 was by far the Ghost Fleet build most prepared for/practiced against. Kind of makes going through the stats pointless, there's no evidence either way. 2) There's no point in trying to examine which element was the problem in the Denny1/Ghost Fleet combination that has drawn lots of feedback - Denny1 is the solution. Other casters in ghost fleet haven't drawn the same feedback yet, and may never draw it after people spend more time breaking apart and preparing for these other casters. I think that even if PP hadn't declared that they wouldn't change Ghost Fleet, they still would have tried to tone down as little as possible whilst satisfying the community, in this case hurting 1 caster instead of many. The problem I have with this is you can invert what you just said & also be correct. 1) I think most people would agree that Ghost Fleet was by far the Deneghra1 build most prepared for/practiced against. 2) Other list builds with Deneghra1 haven’t drawn the same feedback yet, and may never draw it after people spend more time breaking apart & preparing for Ghost Fleet. I dont think it’s pointless to point out how other casters are doing with the list. Deneghra1’s performance with Ghost Fleet is getting her nerfed, yet Deneghra2 is getting buffed at the moment after putting up an even better performance with the list? What’s the goal here, pandering to the complainers on both sides, or actually making the game healthier? Because the changes to both Deneghras in CID look more like pandering.
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Post by mcdermott on Nov 6, 2017 2:41:05 GMT
Whats busted about the theme? Is it the +1 revenant?
Edit: and frankly I'd say there's actually insufficient data with those other casters, if literally 75% of the ghost fleet lists were Denny 1 and 25% were split between 4 other casters what makes you think their results are statistically significant?
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Deller
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Post by Deller on Nov 6, 2017 3:18:19 GMT
Whats busted about the theme? Is it the +1 revenant? Edit: and frankly I'd say there's actually insufficient data with those other casters, if literally 75% of the ghost fleet lists were Denny 1 and 25% were split between 4 other casters what makes you think their results are statistically significant? Frankly, I’d say there’s insufficient data to concur that the problem is actually Deneghra1 considering only 3% of the games she played were not Ghost Fleet. You still haven’t answered my question. What criteria do you have for making the assumption that the problem is Deneghra1? You’ve still given 0 evidence for why the problem is actually the Deneghra1 half of the equation. You’re dismissing my claims as being insufficient while providing nothing to actually back up your claims. So if I believe it’s not Deneghra1 what’s busted about Ghost Fleet. Great Question. Incorporeal is a broken rule. Look how many Incorporeal models abuse the crap out of the current scenario packet. Wraith Engines, Machine Wraiths, Hellslinger, Blackbane’s, Gremlin Swarms, Haley Past & Future. If you don’t have magic weapons these models run the table. If you do have them you get to play. Binary rules are terrible, and Incorporeal is the absolute worst offender. This aspect of Ghost Fleet has absolutely nothing to do with Deneghra1. Combine the bustedness of having Incorporeal with having Rengrave, a borderline unkillable solo for scoring Flags, and the fact your Wraith Engine spits out more Incorporeal Solos you can devote all of your army points to models that score both types of Zones & still have plenty of models for scoring flags between you free models which will be either the unkillable Rengrave or Incorporeal. Ghost Fleet is also the only Theme Force in the game, that I’m aware of, that has Incorporeal scoring models for every scoring element. Blackbane’s score circular zone, Wraith Engine for rectangular zones, Machine Wraith & Hellslinger Flags. This aspect of Ghost Fleet also has absolutely nothing to do with Deneghra1. On top of all of this you get access to one of the best recursion engines in the game that pretty much requires remove from play effects to be able to Attrition down. Also nothing to do with Deneghra1. If Deneghra1 is so backbreakingly overpowered like everyone suggests, why is it she isn’t wrecking havoc with Dark Host or Infernal Machines? Coven was able to crush big events in all 3 themes, why was Deneghra1, the caster so many people were claiming to be the best in the game, unable to?
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Post by mcdermott on Nov 6, 2017 3:21:59 GMT
Because she was being used in ghost fleet so they needed a different caster for the other theme
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Deller
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Post by Deller on Nov 6, 2017 4:38:30 GMT
Because she was being used in ghost fleet so they needed a different caster for the other theme So you’re saying Ghost Fleet is so powerful she’s not worth considering elsewhere?
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Post by mcdermott on Nov 6, 2017 4:46:08 GMT
No i'm saying she worked best with ghost fleet and made them work better than any of the others. That when the remaining 25% of lists are split between 4 other casters outliers like hot dice on a key turn or skill differential betweeen players play a far larger role. That by virtue of being 75% of the lists you begin to have a representative sample, which the other casters lacked.
I'm saying that the things you listed are only made overpowered by having to play into it with a penalty of 2 to 5 from your combat stats.
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Deller
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Post by Deller on Nov 6, 2017 5:54:54 GMT
No i'm saying she worked best with ghost fleet and made them work better than any of the others. That when the remaining 25% of lists are split between 4 other casters outliers like hot dice on a key turn or skill differential betweeen players play a far larger role. That by virtue of being 75% of the lists you begin to have a representative sample, which the other casters lacked. I'm saying that the things you listed are only made overpowered by having to play into it with a penalty of 2 to 5 from your combat stats. If it’s only overpowered with Deneghra1 why does Ghost Fleet perform just as well with every other caster that runs it? Surely if Deneghra1 was as overpowered as you claim, her win rate with the theme would be better then the non overpowered casters running the theme? After all if you’re not bringing the overpowered element of a list, shouldn’t you be losing more? If it were just Deneghra1 that demolished the ATC, OTC, WTC, & every other competitive event I’d agree, she specifically needs a nerf. But it wasn’t. Literally the entirety of the faction had a positive win rate at WTC. That’s indicative of a larger problem.
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