Fire Step
Junior Strategist
Everyday I'm Wrastlin'
Posts: 334
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Post by Fire Step on Nov 22, 2017 12:29:30 GMT
Looks like it's all over. This one really passed me by, I have to admit.
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Post by thebuoyancyofwater on Nov 22, 2017 12:31:53 GMT
"Only" RAT5...
Same RAT as bombadiers you mean? Good thing smog belchers have better guns, better abilities, better defensive stats and are cheaper in order to balance the two...
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Post by macdaddy on Nov 22, 2017 12:56:01 GMT
"Only" RAT5... Same RAT as bombadiers you mean? Good thing smog belchers have better guns, better abilities, better defensive stats and are cheaper in order to balance the two... I think we already established bombardiers are considered poorly designed ranged infantry. attack stats of 5 are bad in most cases. The bombardiers are the one case where I think rat 5 is acceptable. Also, did you see the insider for MoW? they got a serious overhaul in that insider? I think if anying Bombardiers will be just as silly as Belchers were at the beginning of the CiD. Here is hoping Khador players keep things consistent and accept is something is OP or not. Honestly I hope that for every faction. Watching the same people who said the northkin stuff was OP say Belchers, raiders, and Skarre3 were fine was...frustrating.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Nov 22, 2017 13:34:32 GMT
"Only" RAT5... Same RAT as bombadiers you mean? Good thing smog belchers have better guns, better abilities, better defensive stats and are cheaper in order to balance the two... I think we already established bombardiers are considered poorly designed ranged infantry. attack stats of 5 are bad in most cases. The bombardiers are the one case where I think rat 5 is acceptable. Also, did you see the insider for MoW? they got a serious overhaul in that insider? I think if anying Bombardiers will be just as silly as Belchers were at the beginning of the CiD. Here is hoping Khador players keep things consistent and accept is something is OP or not. Honestly I hope that for every faction. Watching the same people who said the northkin stuff was OP say Belchers, raiders, and Skarre3 were fine was...frustrating. Ambush bears OP please nerf. Skarr3 needs moar gunz! [/sarcasm] On a serious note, I fear the next CiD. Because it will be my models on the chopping block. Look at this thread alone and the number of times Warspears are brought up as good shooting models. We (generalization of the Legion community) can't stand how poorly those models fair on the table. How they don't do enough to justify a 15 point unit or 20 with the UA which you are practically required to take or your spd 5 is going nowhere (tactics relentless charge). How they die so easily unless you take a arm buff caster (2) and a 38pt support piece. Yes Spears were good in MK2 with the BB when Thagrosh could bring the BB back from the dead. Yes they can still do work with the right caster. No I don't want them to "kill the world". I want them to be something I feel like putting on the table because it works for it's price. Not, "primal terrors only allows ogrun so I have to take ogrun" when instead I actually look at Primal Terrors and see "+2" deployment, all warbeasts, and hellmouths. Lets make a beast spam army to abuse the crap out of speed, and hellmouths on your side of the board!" (Testing that exact idea with Vayl2) Legion seems to be... well, not so highly regarded by others. I think it's going to be a case that we probably won't get very far with CiD for the same reason Trolls didn't. Everyone else wants to reign in our models so much that our years of experience is going to get buried under a torrent of "OP nerf now!", "It never needed a buff! Look at JVM's wins", "Cryx 2.0", and the like.
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Post by smoothcriminal on Nov 22, 2017 13:35:55 GMT
Did the Unyielding change stick?
Bombardier (and other jank ranged big guys) comparison is unfair because even PP themselves acknowledged they should be better.
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Post by Gamingdevil on Nov 22, 2017 13:55:50 GMT
Did the Unyielding change stick? It was still the same at the end of the CID without any changes during the cycle, so there's a pretty good chance it will stick.
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Post by macdaddy on Nov 22, 2017 14:26:37 GMT
ForEver_BlightSo ummmm that’s exactly what I’m talking about... War Spears Work great under a caster that buffs thier Damage combined with the blightbringer they are excellent. Plus in Theme the UA’s are free.... I think the issue with primal terrors is all you can take really is war Spears and hellmouths If they fix warmongers and the Calvary are good than you won’t have to rely on Spears as a mainline unit. Warmongers are your frontline, the cav are the line breakers, and Spears are the skirmishers. I think once you get a fully utilized theme you’ll see warspears are solid infantry.
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Post by thebuoyancyofwater on Nov 22, 2017 14:38:10 GMT
"Only" RAT5... Same RAT as bombadiers you mean? Good thing smog belchers have better guns, better abilities, better defensive stats and are cheaper in order to balance the two... I think we already established bombardiers are considered poorly designed ranged infantry. attack stats of 5 are bad in most cases. The bombardiers are the one case where I think rat 5 is acceptable. Also, did you see the insider for MoW? they got a serious overhaul in that insider? I think if anying Bombardiers will be just as silly as Belchers were at the beginning of the CiD. Here is hoping Khador players keep things consistent and accept is something is OP or not. Honestly I hope that for every faction. Watching the same people who said the northkin stuff was OP say Belchers, raiders, and Skarre3 were fine was...frustrating. The difference is the (already more expensive) bombadiers are being "fixed" via a 4pt UA, not through the base unit itself. Except going up to range 12 being on the actual unit of course. I'll happily say the bombadiers will be good with those changes, though I'd argue still not as good as smog belchers due to the points disparity. I think if those changes stick the bombadiers will be very solid and will see a lot of play. Cheers, Dave
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Post by Korianneder on Nov 22, 2017 14:42:20 GMT
ForEver_BlightSo ummmm that’s exactly what I’m talking about... War Spears Work great under a caster that buffs thier Damage combined with the blightbringer they are excellent. Plus in Theme the UA’s are free.... I think the issue with primal terrors is all you can take really is war Spears and hellmouths If they fix warmongers and the Calvary are good than you won’t have to rely on Spears as a mainline unit. Warmongers are your frontline, the cav are the line breakers, and Spears are the skirmishers. I think once you get a fully utilized theme you’ll see warspears are solid infantry. So if I take a 38 point model I can make a lackluster unit decent? Warspears are definitely the better Ogrun in Legion, but they're still not good. Each model is three points and they die incredibly easy. Their offensive output is fine, but defensively are subpar.
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Post by macdaddy on Nov 22, 2017 14:44:13 GMT
Alrighty we can save this can of worms for the warspear CiD
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Post by Cryptix on Nov 22, 2017 14:45:59 GMT
I think we already established bombardiers are considered poorly designed ranged infantry. attack stats of 5 are bad in most cases. The bombardiers are the one case where I think rat 5 is acceptable. Also, did you see the insider for MoW? they got a serious overhaul in that insider? I think if anying Bombardiers will be just as silly as Belchers were at the beginning of the CiD. Here is hoping Khador players keep things consistent and accept is something is OP or not. Honestly I hope that for every faction. Watching the same people who said the northkin stuff was OP say Belchers, raiders, and Skarre3 were fine was...frustrating. The difference is the (already more expensive) bombadiers are being "fixed" via a 4pt UA, not through the base unit itself. Except going up to range 12 being on the actual unit of course. I'll happily say the bombadiers will be good with those changes, though I'd argue still not as good as smog belchers due to the points disparity. I think if those changes stick the bombadiers will be very solid and will see a lot of play. Cheers, Dave What? People hated the UA, they only want to take the Bombadiers because its already an OK gun and the problem was the range. I still want RNG 14 and AOE 4 like every single other bombard in khador but that would probably be OP.
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Post by thebuoyancyofwater on Nov 22, 2017 14:53:01 GMT
I think the UA looks solid! All about getting them into a useful position and keeping up their ranged output while doing so. Plus a handy way to un-jam them and keep firing. Finally, a mini-feat of awesome amounts of shooting as icing on the cake.
Cheers, Dave
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Nov 22, 2017 16:30:55 GMT
No it was pointed out how the UA is only good on paper. And how contradictory its elements are.
They can get into difficult terrain but not charge out of it. But it also encourages them to be in melee
But seriously why can Cryx get the UA equivalent built INTO their ranged unit?
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Deller
Junior Strategist
I’m on a Boat
Posts: 605
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Post by Deller on Nov 22, 2017 22:24:39 GMT
Yeah remember guys/gals Smoggies are rat 5 now and that's a pretty bad ranged stat to have. They hit heavy targets pretty well and can pop a supportive cloud wall. They also can deny infantry orders witch is nice but thanks to needing a direct hit its not horribly abuse able. Smog Belchers do not deny orders. You can deny runs/charges on direct hit, but even if you direct hit a leader model & the leader survives that leader can give orders. This is not like applying Stationary to a leader which turns off orders entirely, the leader can still give its order then full advance. Unit specific orders like the Cautious Advance of Tremchers are also uneffected.
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Post by killroundears on Nov 23, 2017 4:17:04 GMT
Yeah remember guys/gals Smoggies are rat 5 now and that's a pretty bad ranged stat to have. They hit heavy targets pretty well and can pop a supportive cloud wall. They also can deny infantry orders witch is nice but thanks to needing a direct hit its not horribly abuse able. i sure am glad that cryx doesn't have any def debuffs / rat fixers like... oh i don't know... - Black Spot (-2 def, make another shot on kill)
- Calamity (-2/-2)
- Mortality (-2/-2) (multiple casters have this)
- Scourge (KD)
- Death Walker (-2 def within 5")
- Icy Grip (-2 def no running)
- TK (back strikes vs individual models, or TK + aim)
- Shadow bind (multiple sources)
- Crippling grasp (-2/-2/-2/-2)
- Denny feat
- Blind (crit effect from multiple abilities such as Kharybdis' spray)
- Breath Stealer (-2 spd -2 def)
- Stationary
- Paralysis (crit effect)
- Puppet master
- +whatever mercs give, if anything, cbf checking
They may be rat 5, but somehow i think that matters less in cryx than in other factions
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