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Post by grotsnik on Sept 28, 2017 3:08:35 GMT
Yeah, 15 models at a great risk... I dont think cryx needs nerfs, I personally think its in a good spot, but Im just saying I would still not mind if denny1 and skarre1 got minor nerfs. Coven seems fine to me, its hard to kill, but it doesnt spell sling much and has no way of making its army hit (and only has a -2arm debuff), it grants the alpha and has a great mobility game though, but thats it. The main reason the Coven irks me is that there's no real compelling reason to run Agathia instead. Agathia has a (pretty wimpy) personal assassination game but other than that her spells are vanilla in comparison (stygian abyss vs hellfire, infernal machine vs hellwrought) and her feat isn't nearly as powerful from a control perspective. If they got rebalanced (eg. Venethrax and Morty1 swapping spells around) so that both were compelling to play I'd be really happy. Its not covens fault that Agathia sucks haha, maybe she needs a bump or something, but the conven is ok as it is IMO... But yeah, fueling desecrators "for free" is nice, too bad she sucks. I would go for goreshade1 and feat instead, add shadowmacer and he runs a spam of desecrators pretty well (Still I think the best caster to do that is skarre1 between feat and dark guidance, she just needs a skarlock and some ritual sacrifice targets)
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Post by Gamingdevil on Sept 28, 2017 6:46:08 GMT
I wouldnt mind if skarre1 got a limit to her feat as haley2 did, max d3+5 affected models seems ok. Having to roll a dice to know how much damage you're even allowed to take and then having to take damage would be too clunky. If anything, maybe they would change it to max half of current HP, but I actually think she's in a pretty good spot. It's pretty hard to heal her except by expending focus (Corruptors are not ok) and putting her below half hp and/or low on focus is a pretty good way to get her killed post-feat turn. If they change anything though, Skarre 2 should probably get the same treatment, I don't really understand why she's limited to 5 while Skarre 1 is limited by her hp.
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sascha
Baby's First Wargame
Posts: 1
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Post by sascha on Sept 28, 2017 7:02:02 GMT
Then it's an ATTRITION game. You can have none of those things & simply play for assassination. Yes it will be telegraphed, but a well crafted assassination list is always telegraphing. One of the things PP were trying to push at the beginning of the edition were dedicated assassination lists, which fell by the wayside thanks to easily assassinatable Casters becoming less and less popular. A dedicated assassin is Deneghra1's Nightmare, so much so that before Bankey built his second Cryx list he simply paired Deneghra1 with an identical Terminus list simply because he's difficult to assassinate. I think she's incredibly hard to assassinate, honestly. I haven't had my Denny killed in a long, long time. She has no business being up there past the feat turn, she can lurk behind houses/forests etc and since you're kind of shoving Pirates down their throat anyways as a primary game plan, you don't have to hold out all that long before most meaningful channelers/guns or whatever primary method of casterkill they have is engaged. That being said, I think if you are in still scared about that you can just play Covenfleet and if you're less retarded than I am and don't place your four witches within 4" of each other against Stormstrider-based lists, then you shouldn't get assassinated ever. If you have a control caster who can actually control Ghost Fleet, you can even go for the fast scenario win. Casters like Old Witch1 can fast Scenario Ghost Fleet relatively easily in some scenarios since any Revenants that advance into her feat automatically die, with the only model being able to safely advance being the Wraith Engine. I also don't think this is universally true, you need a sort of specific list to be able to push for scenario. Denny can still quite comfortably move up against Old Witch, take a single POW14, feat all over her face and -2 SPD and no runs kind of stops most scenario pushes dead in their tracks. Also, you need some way of removing the Wraith Engine before your feat, otherwise they'll just use it to contest quite trivially on your feat turn. I think it's less than ideal. You need some scenariofeat coupled with like a way to threaten Denny at least somewhat so she doesn't move up all in your face to her feat. Plus need a way to clear Blackbanes/WE, so you're like back to square one - at least regarding the magical weapon requirements.
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zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
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Post by zich on Sept 28, 2017 8:13:26 GMT
I understand that Denny1 creates a negative play experience and is tough to play against in GF. While Coven is tough, however, does that caster produce a negative play experience (any more so than any other tough caster)? They don't debuff to the same degree, they don't completely stop your turn, they have some defensive tech and a bunch of stuff to help with movement. They're tricky and tough to pin down, but do they create the same negative play experience? They are almost impossible to assassinate and have a timewalk feat. Coven is bonkers. No question. I would say they are less of an NPE as they are just blatantly powerful and hard to beat. Denny is an NPE because her tech just says no to what people try to do during a turn. weak attacks, low accuracy, low speed, combined witha timewalk feat make her awful to play against. (IME) I think the difference is that her timewalk feat also kills half your stuff.
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npe
Junior Strategist
Posts: 221
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Post by npe on Sept 28, 2017 15:12:17 GMT
The main reason the Coven irks me is that there's no real compelling reason to run Agathia instead. Agathia has a (pretty wimpy) personal assassination game but other than that her spells are vanilla in comparison (stygian abyss vs hellfire, infernal machine vs hellwrought) and her feat isn't nearly as powerful from a control perspective. If they got rebalanced (eg. Venethrax and Morty1 swapping spells around) so that both were compelling to play I'd be really happy. Its not covens fault that Agathia sucks haha, maybe she needs a bump or something, but the conven is ok as it is IMO... But yeah, fueling desecrators "for free" is nice, too bad she sucks. I would go for goreshade1 and feat instead, add shadowmacer and he runs a spam of desecrators pretty well (Still I think the best caster to do that is skarre1 between feat and dark guidance, she just needs a skarlock and some ritual sacrifice targets) I don't think Agathia "sucks" per se, it's just she's at the power level that PP wants Cryx casters to be at. If you look at the Cryx casters from late mk2 (Sturgis2) and mk3 (Agathia, Aiakos2, Morty2) none of them have the ability to control a game the way the older casters do.
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npe
Junior Strategist
Posts: 221
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Post by npe on Sept 28, 2017 15:19:27 GMT
The main reason the Coven irks me is that there's no real compelling reason to run Agathia instead. Agathia has a (pretty wimpy) personal assassination game but other than that her spells are vanilla in comparison (stygian abyss vs hellfire, infernal machine vs hellwrought) and her feat isn't nearly as powerful from a control perspective. If they got rebalanced (eg. Venethrax and Morty1 swapping spells around) so that both were compelling to play I'd be really happy. Agathia is compelling in Black Industries where she can run Desecrators at no real cost since she herself is a bane. Other casters do more in that regard IMO (eg. sacrificial lamb on Morty2, Skarre1 + carapace + dark guidance) . Although Aggie does help drudges a bunch with stealth and mass ghostly.
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Post by grotsnik on Sept 28, 2017 19:47:46 GMT
I don't think Agathia "sucks" per se, it's just she's at the power level that PP wants Cryx casters to be at. If you look at the Cryx casters from late mk2 (Sturgis2) and mk3 (Agathia, Aiakos2, Morty2) none of them have the ability to control a game the way the older casters do. Yeah I know, she is usable, but IMO morty2 is better, and when aiakos2 gets the misery cage he will also be it too. Plus she is worse than almost all the casters that came before her IMO. She is a good caster that suffers from being in a faction that has even better casters I think, plus she gives the army things that we already have other ways to get (all our banes have ghostly plus a lot of casters have ghost walk plus saxon orrik and a lot of models have stealth or casters with ocultation or similars) IMO her toolkit is neither big nor powerful enough to compete with other casters that have a wider toolkit (denny2 skaverus) or more focused powerful ones (shade1, gaspy1, denny1) Only thing that is going for her is that she is a bane and so she can fuel desecrators, but for that I would go with shade1 and feat, anyway he gives all jacks stealth all turns plus an effective +2 damage
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npe
Junior Strategist
Posts: 221
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Post by npe on Sept 28, 2017 20:21:01 GMT
I don't think Agathia "sucks" per se, it's just she's at the power level that PP wants Cryx casters to be at. If you look at the Cryx casters from late mk2 (Sturgis2) and mk3 (Agathia, Aiakos2, Morty2) none of them have the ability to control a game the way the older casters do. Yeah I know, she is usable, but IMO morty2 is better, and when aiakos2 gets the misery cage he will also be it too. Plus she is worse than almost all the casters that came before her IMO. She is a good caster that suffers from being in a faction that has even better casters I think, plus she gives the army things that we already have other ways to get (all our banes have ghostly plus a lot of casters have ghost walk plus saxon orrik and a lot of models have stealth or casters with ocultation or similars) IMO her toolkit is neither big nor powerful enough to compete with other casters that have a wider toolkit (denny2 skaverus) or more focused powerful ones (shade1, gaspy1, denny1) Only thing that is going for her is that she is a bane and so she can fuel desecrators, but for that I would go with shade1 and feat, anyway he gives all jacks stealth all turns plus an effective +2 damage Morty2 isn't really "better" than Agathia, just different. Agathia makes Infernal Machines (and hopefully slaughter fleet and the Satyxis theme) sing by giving them the same advantages Banes have. I've run Agathia and Morty2 with almost exactly the same list (thrall spam and a Sepulcher under infernal machines) and they both have their advantages. Spammed ghost walk makes thralls incredibly annoying (ambushing thralls + ghost walk, walking into back arcs), while Morty2 likes more Carrions and failsafe makes the sepulcher able to counterpunch hard against opposing heavies.
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Post by Gamingdevil on Sept 29, 2017 6:49:41 GMT
a lot of casters have ghost walk One of them is actually Agathia, the others are Denny 1/3 and Coven. We really don't have that much Ghost Walk anymore.
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Post by far2casual on Sept 29, 2017 8:23:43 GMT
Stop reminding me that Denny2 lost Ghost Walk for no reason all the time, Tim
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Post by grotsnik on Sept 29, 2017 14:57:33 GMT
a lot of casters have ghost walk One of them is actually Agathia, the others are Denny 1/3 and Coven. We really don't have that much Ghost Walk anymore. Lol thats true, my bad
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Post by mcdermott on Sept 29, 2017 15:12:45 GMT
I understand that Denny1 creates a negative play experience and is tough to play against in GF. While Coven is tough, however, does that caster produce a negative play experience (any more so than any other tough caster)? They don't debuff to the same degree, they don't completely stop your turn, they have some defensive tech and a bunch of stuff to help with movement. They're tricky and tough to pin down, but do they create the same negative play experience? Denny1 has always sucked to play against, debuff casters always tend to get more hate. The big issue is that ghost fleet's recursion doesn't follow the same basic rules as any other recursion anywhere. Denny might get nerfed, realistically a less extreme version would be forcing ghost fleet to obey the same rules as everyone else and their models having to forfeit combat actions on the turn they return to play.
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Post by far2casual on Oct 2, 2017 11:48:18 GMT
The big issue is that ghost fleet's recursion doesn't follow the same basic rules as any other recursion anywhere. Untrue. Look at Hellmouths, or Sentry Stones. Recursion that trigger automatically during the "Maintenance Phase", before you activate anything, allow you to activate freely afterwards. All other types of recursion, that comes from abilities, feats, in other words that can be triggered during the activation of a model, require you to forfeit something.
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Post by mcdermott on Oct 2, 2017 15:29:58 GMT
Fair, Ghost fleet does it with shooting though, which creates a different dynamic. Recur, place, shoot.
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Deller
Junior Strategist
I’m on a Boat
Posts: 605
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Post by Deller on Oct 2, 2017 21:27:06 GMT
Fair, Ghost fleet does it with shooting though, which creates a different dynamic. Recur, place, shoot. So do Mannikins? The only difference is Ghost Rifles are longer range while Mannikins are sprays. Yes Revenants are better & have better support, but they should be considering they cost 3x as much.
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