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Post by tarviche on Sept 26, 2017 16:54:55 GMT
I really suspect Denny1 will get the same nerf as Haley 2 (affect d3+5 models with the feat rather than all models), keeping it an extremely effective feat for dealing with battlegroups or going for assassination. I think she'd still be very strong, one of the strongest casters in Cryx, but it would definitely affect how she complements Ghost Fleet. If Coven gets nerfed, I have no idea what form that would take. I agree with the post last page that the Wraith Engine giving free points in Dark Host is weird and unnecessary, and it should be doing that in Infernal Machines (which would enormously improve that theme without busting it, I think). I'd swap the LoS part of their feat to Agathia (the coven would get stealth) while keeping the control aspect of minus rat and mat. That would make Agathia a lot more compelling and balance out their feats a bit. Hmm, I think this would definitely even out the power levels, but I don't think they're willing to make much of a change to a battlebox caster if they can avoid it--especially to give them a brutal ability like full LOS shutdown. Very interesting idea, though.
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zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
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Post by zich on Sept 26, 2017 17:09:15 GMT
Alternatively you can play the game of assassinate the 16/14 16 box Warcaster which doesn't require nearly as much. Please do not omit Stealth, Arc Nodes and the control Feat.
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Post by Big Fat Troll on Sept 26, 2017 17:27:08 GMT
Sascha played goreshade3 with cav in mk2. Him and archbomad (cruixshanks) are the founders of that list. CID only revived (ha!) because riders got better as they needed it making the list possible to play again. I'm the other goreshade3 player from netherlands. Dropped him 5 times, won 4 games. I've talked with Sascha about the his pairing prior to the event and he wanted to play shade3 and felt he needed coven for the mirror and cygnar, so that is exactly as you guessed. Sad to see hik drop coven 5 times because I know shade is his favorite caster, but hey, what do you want from someone who has a shot to win it all. That's awesome, thanks. I didn't know much about the history of Bane Riders, but it seems like they've never been better. I still think of Mk2 Cryx as mostly either speedy assassination lists with 4 arc nodes or 50 Banes. Still, this one is a super fun list. I hope he gets to play it more often, and I am slightly tempted to get the models myself if I ever catch up on budgets and the stuff I already have. The Goreshades were always my favorite thing in Cryx, though I also like the look of the Banes and half the jacks. Long ago I painted a Goreshade 1 just for fun and gave it to a new player.
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Deller
Junior Strategist
I’m on a Boat
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Post by Deller on Sept 26, 2017 17:47:47 GMT
I really suspect Denny1 will get the same nerf as Haley 2 (affect d3+5 models with the feat rather than all models), keeping it an extremely effective feat for dealing with battlegroups or going for assassination. I think she'd still be very strong, one of the strongest casters in Cryx, but it would definitely affect how she complements Ghost Fleet. If Coven gets nerfed, I have no idea what form that would take. I agree with the post last page that the Wraith Engine giving free points in Dark Host is weird and unnecessary, and it should be doing that in Infernal Machines (which would enormously improve that theme without busting it, I think). Yea no, Deneghra1 would not be one of the strongest casters in Cryx with that feat change. Cryx had 13 casters present at the WTC, 10 of which saw play more than 5 times, all with positive win rates. Unlike Haley2, Deneghra1 has a lot of actual competition at the top of the Cryx caster pool, and her current popularity is due to the fact she's the best at running one of the better theme forces in the faction. Before Ghost Fleet she was definitively behind both Skarre1 & Coven in solo events who made better use of Stalkers, Satyxis Raiders, the Wraith Engine, & Soul Hunters. Nerf Deneghra1 like that & Ghost Fleet will become either an Asphyxious1 list as he's the better Assassination caster anyway, or a Terminus list if you're worried about survivability. Will Deneghra1 still be good with that nerf, sure. But this forum has people talking about how good Aiakos2, Mortenebra2, and Sturgis2 are. Good doesn't see tournament play. I agree with the Wraith Engine changes to Dark Host 100%, I think the only reason it counts for free points in Dark Host & not Infernal Machines is due to the overlapping CID cycles & the fact that PP wanted Cryx players testing both at once which is a huge mistake.
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Post by macdaddy on Sept 26, 2017 18:15:23 GMT
Denny one could use a feat nerf. Maybe not on the haley 2 level but she needs to be toned down. You cannot look at her performance with ghost fleet and say "ell she is the best caster and needs to stay that way" its bad for the game.
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Post by Big Fat Troll on Sept 26, 2017 18:29:55 GMT
I really suspect Denny1 will get the same nerf as Haley 2 (affect d3+5 models with the feat rather than all models), keeping it an extremely effective feat for dealing with battlegroups or going for assassination. I think she'd still be very strong, one of the strongest casters in Cryx, but it would definitely affect how she complements Ghost Fleet. If Coven gets nerfed, I have no idea what form that would take. I agree with the post last page that the Wraith Engine giving free points in Dark Host is weird and unnecessary, and it should be doing that in Infernal Machines (which would enormously improve that theme without busting it, I think). Yea no, Deneghra1 would not be one of the strongest casters in Cryx with that feat change. Cryx had 13 casters present at the WTC, 10 of which saw play more than 5 times, all with positive win rates. Unlike Haley2, Deneghra1 has a lot of actual competition at the top of the Cryx caster pool, and her current popularity is due to the fact she's the best at running one of the better theme forces in the faction. Before Ghost Fleet she was definitively behind both Skarre1 & Coven in solo events who made better use of Stalkers, Satyxis Raiders, the Wraith Engine, & Soul Hunters. Nerf Deneghra1 like that & Ghost Fleet will become either an Asphyxious1 list as he's the better Assassination caster anyway, or a Terminus list if you're worried about survivability. Will Deneghra1 still be good with that nerf, sure. But this forum has people talking about how good Aiakos2, Mortenebra2, and Sturgis2 are. Good doesn't see tournament play. I agree with the Wraith Engine changes to Dark Host 100%, I think the only reason it counts for free points in Dark Host & not Infernal Machines is due to the overlapping CID cycles & the fact that PP wanted Cryx players testing both at once which is a huge mistake. This time I actually agree with you 100% Especially the part about the Wraith Engine. That almost looks like some kind of clerical error. It counts toward freebies in Dark Host but not Infernal Machines, and Fennblades and the Krielstone do not count toward freebies in Band of Heroes. That is kinda nonsensical and dumb.
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Deller
Junior Strategist
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Post by Deller on Sept 26, 2017 19:44:50 GMT
Denny one could use a feat nerf. Maybe not on the haley 2 level but she needs to be toned down. You cannot look at her performance with ghost fleet and say "ell she is the best caster and needs to stay that way" its bad for the game. See that's the thing, I don't think Deneghra1s the best caster in Cryx. Deneghra1 might win the popularity contest, but Coven wins the best in show award in my book. They were the best caster in faction before themes, they're the best caster in 2/3 of our currently released theme forces, and they won 5/5 games in the third theme on the winning team. Deneghra1 Ghost Fleet might be an issue, but I haven't seen Deneghra1 Dark Host or Infernal Machines accomplish anything. Coven's an issue in all 3 themes. Deneghra1 had the 65% win rate, Coven was the caster with the 75%.
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Post by macdaddy on Sept 26, 2017 20:12:06 GMT
Denny one could use a feat nerf. Maybe not on the haley 2 level but she needs to be toned down. You cannot look at her performance with ghost fleet and say "ell she is the best caster and needs to stay that way" its bad for the game. See that's the thing, I don't think Deneghra1s the best caster in Cryx. Deneghra1 might win the popularity contest, but Coven wins the best in show award in my book. They were the best caster in faction before themes, they're the best caster in 2/3 of our currently released theme forces, and they won 5/5 games in the third theme on the winning team. Deneghra1 Ghost Fleet might be an issue, but I haven't seen Deneghra1 Dark Host or Infernal Machines accomplish anything. Coven's an issue in all 3 themes. Deneghra1 had the 65% win rate, Coven was the caster with the 75%. I mean yeah Coven is better but that does not mean Denny 1 may need a slight feat re-work. 65% is still bananas good for 1 caster
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npe
Junior Strategist
Posts: 221
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Post by npe on Sept 26, 2017 20:23:10 GMT
Yea no, Deneghra1 would not be one of the strongest casters in Cryx with that feat change. Cryx had 13 casters present at the WTC, 10 of which saw play more than 5 times, all with positive win rates. Unlike Haley2, Deneghra1 has a lot of actual competition at the top of the Cryx caster pool, and her current popularity is due to the fact she's the best at running one of the better theme forces in the faction. Before Ghost Fleet she was definitively behind both Skarre1 & Coven in solo events who made better use of Stalkers, Satyxis Raiders, the Wraith Engine, & Soul Hunters. Nerf Deneghra1 like that & Ghost Fleet will become either an Asphyxious1 list as he's the better Assassination caster anyway, or a Terminus list if you're worried about survivability. Will Deneghra1 still be good with that nerf, sure. But this forum has people talking about how good Aiakos2, Mortenebra2, and Sturgis2 are. Good doesn't see tournament play. I agree with the Wraith Engine changes to Dark Host 100%, I think the only reason it counts for free points in Dark Host & not Infernal Machines is due to the overlapping CID cycles & the fact that PP wanted Cryx players testing both at once which is a huge mistake. This time I actually agree with you 100% Especially the part about the Wraith Engine. That almost looks like some kind of clerical error. It counts toward freebies in Dark Host but not Infernal Machines, and Fennblades and the Krielstone do not count toward freebies in Band of Heroes. That is kinda nonsensical and dumb. It was on purpose, I forget where it was mentioned in the CID cycle. The idea is to make it worth the effort to knock Riders and Knights up to arm 20 against shooting. The WE functions a lot differently in IM because it knocks your thralls up to the point where pow 6 blast kills them on 7s and makes shield guarding on your brutes much better (arm 16 8 boxes is way better than arm 14 8). I'd love it if the WE was free points in IM but it's less of a "must take" there.
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Deller
Junior Strategist
I’m on a Boat
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Post by Deller on Sept 26, 2017 20:41:47 GMT
See that's the thing, I don't think Deneghra1s the best caster in Cryx. Deneghra1 might win the popularity contest, but Coven wins the best in show award in my book. They were the best caster in faction before themes, they're the best caster in 2/3 of our currently released theme forces, and they won 5/5 games in the third theme on the winning team. Deneghra1 Ghost Fleet might be an issue, but I haven't seen Deneghra1 Dark Host or Infernal Machines accomplish anything. Coven's an issue in all 3 themes. Deneghra1 had the 65% win rate, Coven was the caster with the 75%. I mean yeah Coven is better but that does not mean Denny 1 may need a slight feat re-work. 65% is still bananas good for 1 caster So is 73%, but I don't see anyone on the nerf Skarre1 bandwagon. If you want to make a comparison to Haley2, the caster that's on the top of all the faction rankings, is winning multiple major events, and plays well with anything in the faction, in Cryx it's Coven not Deneghra. Currently Deneghra1 shines in a single list, Coven is the versitile monster that can play anything.
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Post by bloodhawk on Sept 26, 2017 21:21:49 GMT
It seems Denny1 has an easy nerf option of removing the no charge / orders clause. That feels like it would keep her intact while taking away some of the oppressiveness she shows in Ghost Fleet.
As for Coven though, they seem much more difficult. Can anyone think of anything similarly subtle to do to them? It seems that the combo of their amazing feat, and extreme hardiness (with the potential for triple focus dmg reduction) makes them such a problem. IMO those aren't easily adjusted short of somehow changing their focus pool to give them a 14 or 16 inch control range, which can't be done as those don't divide into 3, lol.
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Post by grotsnik on Sept 26, 2017 21:29:36 GMT
Coven got worse from mk2 to mk3, why is it that it is so good now? Because of power up and the way reinforcing the power field works? Was it that good before and it just got outshined by gaspy2? Or is it just something the meta needs to adjust to? IMO cryx is in a very good spot right now but I dont think its OP as in mk2, I think the meta needs some time to adjust before we call cryx OP Still I agree denny could use a slight nerf (removing the "no charges" part)
PS: the first questions are not retorical, I truly wonder why things are like that
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Post by Big Fat Troll on Sept 27, 2017 1:44:46 GMT
It seems Denny1 has an easy nerf option of removing the no charge / orders clause. That feels like it would keep her intact while taking away some of the oppressiveness she shows in Ghost Fleet. As for Coven though, they seem much more difficult. Can anyone think of anything similarly subtle to do to them? It seems that the combo of their amazing feat, and extreme hardiness (with the potential for triple focus dmg reduction) makes them such a problem. IMO those aren't easily adjusted short of somehow changing their focus pool to give them a 14 or 16 inch control range, which can't be done as those don't divide into 3, lol. I had thought the same thing about Denny. My theory is that dealing with her debuffing you into oblivion is a challenge, and answering Ghost Fleet's difficult questions is a challenge, but having to do both at the same time just to stay in the game is downright oppressive. I can see taking away Scourge, as she didn't have that before, and/or like you said with the feat. If it didn't stop charges or at least not special actions it might be more reasonable. I mean, it stops magic ability. Seriously? Ugh. I'd be fine with it working the exact same way but only doing the -2 to the stats and not stopping charges or anything else. I once mused upon the idea of limiting Ghost Fleet to undead warcasters only, as that would remove both the Coven and Denny 1 from the equation, but that also catches Skarre, and that just feels weird. I guess she and the Satyxis are getting their own theme, though, so maybe that's not so bad. The real problem with that is the obvious question of whether that really solves it. Would there just be some build with Venethrax or one of the Gaspys or maybe Terminus that could break Ghost Fleet again? Of course, it's okay if the theme is still a force in the meta, but that's a fine line regardless, simply because it has such special advantages that require such specific answers. Or maybe people just need to play focused assassination lists again...
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Post by Big Fat Troll on Sept 27, 2017 1:48:21 GMT
Coven got worse from mk2 to mk3, why is it that it is so good now? Because of power up and the way reinforcing the power field works? Was it that good before and it just got outshined by gaspy2? Or is it just something the meta needs to adjust to? IMO cryx is in a very good spot right now but I dont think its OP as in mk2, I think the meta needs some time to adjust before we call cryx OP Still I agree denny could use a slight nerf (removing the "no charges" part) PS: the first questions are not retorical, I truly wonder why things are like that It is not unusual for a caster to be helped (or hurt) more by changes to the core rules or Steamroller and direct buffs or nerfs. Grissel 2 gained tremendously simply from the change to ROF, just for example.
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npe
Junior Strategist
Posts: 221
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Post by npe on Sept 27, 2017 2:03:10 GMT
It seems Denny1 has an easy nerf option of removing the no charge / orders clause. That feels like it would keep her intact while taking away some of the oppressiveness she shows in Ghost Fleet. As for Coven though, they seem much more difficult. Can anyone think of anything similarly subtle to do to them? It seems that the combo of their amazing feat, and extreme hardiness (with the potential for triple focus dmg reduction) makes them such a problem. IMO those aren't easily adjusted short of somehow changing their focus pool to give them a 14 or 16 inch control range, which can't be done as those don't divide into 3, lol. I think if their feat gave stealth and Agathia's feat blocked LOS their power levels would be a lot more even. Agathia's the more defensive caster (with hellwrought).
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