Deller
Junior Strategist
I’m on a Boat
Posts: 605
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Post by Deller on Sept 26, 2017 14:02:10 GMT
Yeah I'm very surprised Denny1 has managed to dodge nerfs so far. She was and is one of the most notorious negative play experiences and brutally powerful casters around. I still haven't managed to lose with her. Coven... eh. They're good, but they're a counter to high threat ranges. I don't feel like they're in the same category as Denny. It IS very interesting that every part of Cryx had a positive win %. Did you remove the mirror from the overall and caster win %? I heard elsewhere that the overall win rate with the mirror removed was 71%. I mean, she got multiple nerfs going into Mark3. Crippling Grasp no longer prevented runs, charges, & special attacks, Ghost Walk no longer works on Mercenaries, she traded the niche Influence for the unusable Dark Seduction, & The Withering no longer gives -2 Focus. People always seem to forget that during the Mark3 introduction Insider spoiler process when the Cryx insider showed us Deneghra1 everyone was talking about how hard of a nerf she was getting.
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Post by custardboy on Sept 26, 2017 14:08:00 GMT
Fair enough. Just one thing though: I've never bothered with influence on the handful of casters who have it. Dark seduction I've cast a bunch of times though. It can be an unexpectedly useful spell thrown from Deathjack.
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Post by macdaddy on Sept 26, 2017 14:33:40 GMT
It's important to remember that team tournament lists do not always translate well into solo event tournaments. The ability to dodge extremely bad matchups and entire factions is a massive difference. 63% is still crazy good compared to other factions. You guys are also preforming exceptionally in solo events since dark host dropped. Me thinks Dark host is a little to much right now. As far as denny 1...she is still stomping the meta...obviously the nerfs were not enough. Considering how ridiculous she was in MK2 I think it's fair to ask for just one more nerf akin to what haley 2 just took. Nothing horrible, maybe just remove the no charges portion of her feat so opponents actually get a turn. I don't think at this point it is reasonable in any way to deny that cryx is far ahead of everyone else.
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Kavrae
Junior Strategist
Posts: 182
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Post by Kavrae on Sept 26, 2017 14:36:02 GMT
Would it be safe to say at this point that Privateer Press overcompensated and went too far in their Cryx buffs when trying to dig us out of our Mk3 deficit? Those buffs, combined with the Cryx players finally figuring out what to do with the changes, and the powerful theme forces, added up to being too much and putting us over the top?
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npe
Junior Strategist
Posts: 221
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Post by npe on Sept 26, 2017 15:02:38 GMT
Yeah I'm very surprised Denny1 has managed to dodge nerfs so far. She was and is one of the most notorious negative play experiences and brutally powerful casters around. I still haven't managed to lose with her. Coven... eh. They're good, but they're a counter to high threat ranges. I don't feel like they're in the same category as Denny. It IS very interesting that every part of Cryx had a positive win %. Did you remove the mirror from the overall and caster win %? I heard elsewhere that the overall win rate with the mirror removed was 71%. I mean, she got multiple nerfs going into Mark3. Crippling Grasp no longer prevented runs, charges, & special attacks, Ghost Walk no longer works on Mercenaries, she traded the niche Influence for the unusable Dark Seduction, & The Withering no longer gives -2 Focus. People always seem to forget that during the Mark3 introduction Insider spoiler process when the Cryx insider showed us Deneghra1 everyone was talking about how hard of a nerf she was getting. Haley2 got a massive nerf as well (no longer deciding the opponents activations) but she was still overpowered compared to the rest of the meta.
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npe
Junior Strategist
Posts: 221
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Post by npe on Sept 26, 2017 15:09:17 GMT
Would it be safe to say at this point that Privateer Press overcompensated and went too far in their Cryx buffs when trying to dig us out of our Mk3 deficit? Those buffs, combined with the Cryx players finally figuring out what to do with the changes, and the powerful theme forces, added up to being too much and putting us over the top? I don't think it's necessarily as bad as people think, it's just that in the current meta of armor spam and gunlines neither goes particularly well in Dark Host (under the coven). If the Coven gets nerfed I suspect that there will be reasonable counterplay in DH lists.
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Deller
Junior Strategist
I’m on a Boat
Posts: 605
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Post by Deller on Sept 26, 2017 15:15:58 GMT
Would it be safe to say at this point that Privateer Press overcompensated and went too far in their Cryx buffs when trying to dig us out of our Mk3 deficit? Those buffs, combined with the Cryx players finally figuring out what to do with the changes, and the powerful theme forces, added up to being too much and putting us over the top? I don't think the problem was the buffs. After Warmachine Weekend 2016 Cryx was doing extremely poorly in solo events due to the power of gunlines such as Caine2, Ossyan, and High Reclaimer. Cryx needed a lot of help if it wanted to be able to play into the best of them. Instead of buffing Cryx's ability to play into Gunlines, PP nerfed the crap out of the worst offenders that were shutting Cryx down back in January, then in the next 9 months has given Cryx all of the anti-gunline tech they were asking for in the first place. This is the classic PP double dip, don't just buff the anti-gunlines, but also nerf most of the best gunlines. Personally I'd rather see PP reverse some of the past nerfs aimed at casters who got hit with the nerf bat before theme forces were a thing. I want PP to stop nerfing things. If Cryx is a problem buff their counters.
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zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
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Post by zich on Sept 26, 2017 15:17:28 GMT
The issue is a deeper one. GhostFleet demands that I bring RfP, guns, antimagic and Magical Weapons to not autolose (not to win, just to not lose). DarkHost demands that I bring a fast and resillient list that can deal with being controlled for a round and has good contesting pieces for scenarios like SpreadTheNet. There is extremely little overlap between the two.
A meta of Armor Spam and Gunlines is really not what I am seeing. Maybe half a year ago, but certainly not now.
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npe
Junior Strategist
Posts: 221
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Post by npe on Sept 26, 2017 15:21:44 GMT
The issue is a deeper one. GhostFleet demands that I bring RfP, guns, antimagic and Magical Weapons to not autolose (not to win, just to not lose). DarkHost demands that I bring a fast and resillient list that can deal with being controlled for a round and has good contesting pieces for scenarios like SpreadTheNet. There is extremely little overlap between the two. A meta of Armor Spam and Gunlines is really not what I am seeing. Maybe half a year ago, but certainly not now. Do you auto-lose to Ghost Fleet outside of Denny1 and potentially the coven? Without the massive debuffs or protection that Denny1 and the Coven gives the list is a lot less scary IMO. Same with Dark Host. If it's not being run by the Coven is it nearly as scary?
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Post by macdaddy on Sept 26, 2017 15:25:35 GMT
The issue is a deeper one. GhostFleet demands that I bring RfP, guns, antimagic and Magical Weapons to not autolose (not to win, just to not lose). DarkHost demands that I bring a fast and resillient list that can deal with being controlled for a round and has good contesting pieces for scenarios like SpreadTheNet. There is extremely little overlap between the two. A meta of Armor Spam and Gunlines is really not what I am seeing. Maybe half a year ago, but certainly not now. Do you auto-lose to Ghost Fleet outside of Denny1 and potentially the coven? Without the massive debuffs or protection that Denny1 and the Coven gives the list is a lot less scary IMO. Same with Dark Host. If it's not being run by the Coven is it nearly as scary? Gorshade 3, seems to do incredibly with it. The issue with dark host is dark host (and arguably coven) the issue with ghost fleet is Denny 1 (and arguably coven)
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Deller
Junior Strategist
I’m on a Boat
Posts: 605
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Post by Deller on Sept 26, 2017 15:37:54 GMT
The issue is a deeper one. GhostFleet demands that I bring RfP, guns, antimagic and Magical Weapons to not autolose (not to win, just to not lose). DarkHost demands that I bring a fast and resillient list that can deal with being controlled for a round and has good contesting pieces for scenarios like SpreadTheNet. There is extremely little overlap between the two. A meta of Armor Spam and Gunlines is really not what I am seeing. Maybe half a year ago, but certainly not now. Ghost Fleet demands you bring those things to not auto lose the attrition game. Alternatively you can play the game of assassinate the 16/14 16 box Warcaster which doesn't require nearly as much.
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npe
Junior Strategist
Posts: 221
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Post by npe on Sept 26, 2017 15:40:47 GMT
Do you auto-lose to Ghost Fleet outside of Denny1 and potentially the coven? Without the massive debuffs or protection that Denny1 and the Coven gives the list is a lot less scary IMO. Same with Dark Host. If it's not being run by the Coven is it nearly as scary? Gorshade 3, seems to do incredibly with it. The issue with dark host is dark host (and arguably coven) the issue with ghost fleet is Denny 1 (and arguably coven) The Gore3 list is interesting, but I doesn't strike me as massively overpowered against arm spam.
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Post by tarviche on Sept 26, 2017 16:07:20 GMT
I really suspect Denny1 will get the same nerf as Haley 2 (affect d3+5 models with the feat rather than all models), keeping it an extremely effective feat for dealing with battlegroups or going for assassination. I think she'd still be very strong, one of the strongest casters in Cryx, but it would definitely affect how she complements Ghost Fleet.
If Coven gets nerfed, I have no idea what form that would take.
I agree with the post last page that the Wraith Engine giving free points in Dark Host is weird and unnecessary, and it should be doing that in Infernal Machines (which would enormously improve that theme without busting it, I think).
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Post by macdaddy on Sept 26, 2017 16:17:57 GMT
The issue is a deeper one. GhostFleet demands that I bring RfP, guns, antimagic and Magical Weapons to not autolose (not to win, just to not lose). DarkHost demands that I bring a fast and resillient list that can deal with being controlled for a round and has good contesting pieces for scenarios like SpreadTheNet. There is extremely little overlap between the two. A meta of Armor Spam and Gunlines is really not what I am seeing. Maybe half a year ago, but certainly not now. Ghost Fleet demands you bring those things to not auto lose the attrition game. Alternatively you can play the game of assassinate the 16/14 16 box Warcaster which doesn't require nearly as much. Good opponents do not give away that assassination. Seriously if it was that easy to get to her she would not be kicking everyones teeth in.
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npe
Junior Strategist
Posts: 221
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Post by npe on Sept 26, 2017 16:22:14 GMT
I really suspect Denny1 will get the same nerf as Haley 2 (affect d3+5 models with the feat rather than all models), keeping it an extremely effective feat for dealing with battlegroups or going for assassination. I think she'd still be very strong, one of the strongest casters in Cryx, but it would definitely affect how she complements Ghost Fleet. If Coven gets nerfed, I have no idea what form that would take. I agree with the post last page that the Wraith Engine giving free points in Dark Host is weird and unnecessary, and it should be doing that in Infernal Machines (which would enormously improve that theme without busting it, I think). I'd swap the LoS part of their feat to Agathia (the coven would get stealth) while keeping the control aspect of minus rat and mat. That would make Agathia a lot more compelling and balance out their feats a bit.
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