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Post by Cryptix on Sept 27, 2017 13:29:33 GMT
I don't really care about Ghost Fleet until they get more than 1 unit, its a stupid theme to make in the first place, even worse than Sons of the Tempest because there is only 1-3 possible builds for it.
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zich
Junior Strategist
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Post by zich on Sept 27, 2017 13:32:57 GMT
If you have no plan you lose, if you have a plan it's a game. I object to this. If you have a plan, magical weapons, countermagic and RfP THEN it's a game. Those are not my words by the way, but a rough translation of those of one of the best Cryx players out there. And I may add to that: Even if you bring all of those you can still be weak to CovenHost or ShadeHost, in which case all of that preparation is worth nothing. DennyFleet is metabending, if recent results are not proof of that, what is?
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Deller
Junior Strategist
I’m on a Boat
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Post by Deller on Sept 27, 2017 14:46:30 GMT
If you have no plan you lose, if you have a plan it's a game. I object to this. If you have a plan, magical weapons, countermagic and RfP THEN it's a game. Then it's an ATTRITION game. You can have none of those things & simply play for assassination. Yes it will be telegraphed, but a well crafted assassination list is always telegraphing. One of the things PP were trying to push at the beginning of the edition were dedicated assassination lists, which fell by the wayside thanks to easily assassinatable Casters becoming less and less popular. A dedicated assassin is Deneghra1's Nightmare, so much so that before Bankey built his second Cryx list he simply paired Deneghra1 with an identical Terminus list simply because he's difficult to assassinate. If you have a control caster who can actually control Ghost Fleet, you can even go for the fast scenario win. Casters like Old Witch1 can fast Scenario Ghost Fleet relatively easily in some scenarios since any Revenants that advance into her feat automatically die, with the only model being able to safely advance being the Wraith Engine.
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zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
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Post by zich on Sept 27, 2017 14:51:54 GMT
I would like to doubt that. Assassination as your only game plan is an incredibly bad game plan. Not even B3 can afford that. Even he has to force the enemy caster to commit in order to get an assassination. And guess how: By Sattrition (really starting to like the term). Maybe Caine3 can do it, and even that is far from certain, if the Denny player owns a tape measure that extends to 20".
tl;dr: If you start a game with the attrition already lost, then the skill difference towards your opponent needs to be incredibly huge to still win. So huge in fact that I wouldn't begin to hope for it against anyone with a modicum of practice.
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Deller
Junior Strategist
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Post by Deller on Sept 27, 2017 15:01:04 GMT
The fact that I have to tech incredibly specifically just for denny 1 ghost fleet is the problem. If you deny that her piloting ghost fleet does not demand a very specific toolset (and even then it is a really hard game to win for the opponent) then I do not know if there is any more argument to be had. The problem in cryx is that you guys were a pretty OK faction before themes and then you got denny 1 ghost fleet, and then you got dark host. Denny 1 ghost fleet is bad for the meta too. Just because she isn't as stupid good as coven does not mean she doesn't need a nerf. The issue with skarre 1 IMO is mostly How her feat can affect her entire army if built properly there should probably be a limit on how many models can be affected by her feat. Dark host is mostly the issue right now. The combination of the strenuous demands for ghost fleet AND the brutality of dark host is just abusing the meta right now. Denny 1 and coven need changes. Dark host also needs changes. I am sure when people start abusing Dark industries that will need changes but i could be wrong about that one. I need incredibly specific tech to cross the field just for Sloan is the problem. It demands a very specific toolset. The problem is Cygnar was a pretty Ok faction before themes, then Sloan got Heavy Metal. Just because she's not as stupid as Haley2 doesn't mean she doesn't need a nerf. Except as it turns out, the meta adjusted and Sloan fell out of favor despite people screaming about how she was destroying the game for a year. She didn't need nerfs. Sloan + Chargers didn't actually destroy the game or the meta, and new releases caused Sloan to decline. I would be shocked if the same did not occur for Deneghra come the release of Industries & Satyxis themes. A year ago not having a Sloan answer was suicide, now it's whatever. Fix the actual problem. For this entire edition that's been Coven & Skarre1. Fix them, and make it so the Wraith Engine counts toward free points in Infernal Machines & not Dark Host.
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Post by macdaddy on Sept 27, 2017 15:12:24 GMT
But the meta adjusted to Denny and she is still winning.
Have you ever played against Denny 1 ghost fleet? It is not pleasant for anyone. I hate playing into denny 1 as much as I hate playing into Haley 2. Same goes for coven.
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zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
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Post by zich on Sept 27, 2017 15:21:48 GMT
Nah, Haley2 isn't as bad. Let that sink in for a second.
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Post by grotsnik on Sept 27, 2017 16:37:01 GMT
I wouldnt mind if skarre1 got a limit to her feat as haley2 did, max d3+5 affected models seems ok.
Regarding coven idk... I know the Ball is almost unkillable but if you manage to kill a witch the power level goes down quite a bit, and they are arm13 so... plus they are not haley2, the coven gives you either the alpha or a turn to get there, plus the oponent still gets to do suff, haley2 got 2 turns of shooting and made the enemy completely useless... maybe the way reinforcing the power field works with the coven could change, and only one witch gets to do it, but I dont think its an OP caster.
The wraith engine in IM for free points doesnt make much sense to me as "Most of these dark factories churn out endless thralls and warjacks following time-tested patterns to support the war efforts of the Dragonfather" but thats just my opinion.
We shall see if the meta adjusts and cryx win rate falls or if you are right and a nerf is needed, keep in mind all the other factions are geting their TF too.
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Grimolf
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Post by Grimolf on Sept 27, 2017 16:37:05 GMT
I understand that Denny1 creates a negative play experience and is tough to play against in GF. While Coven is tough, however, does that caster produce a negative play experience (any more so than any other tough caster)? They don't debuff to the same degree, they don't completely stop your turn, they have some defensive tech and a bunch of stuff to help with movement. They're tricky and tough to pin down, but do they create the same negative play experience?
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Post by smoothcriminal on Sept 27, 2017 16:42:10 GMT
Timewalk feats are getting nerfed out of the game. Some of them got gutted on mk2-mk3 transition. Una2 lasted like a month after release. Good thing Wurmwood was fixed before Circle got wolf theme. Haley2 is most recent. I'm not expecting Denny1 feat stay the way it currently is for long. The problem with treatment Haley 2 got is where do we stop? Do we d3+5 all feats? Do we do it to mass spells? Abilities like tactician? It could get very silly very fast.
Coven is whole another can of worms with it's 4 solo caster setup. I don't even know where to begin fixing them without putting them in a unit, feat is not the main problem there.
Then there's the incorporeal mechanic which allows dirt cheap solos to win games by contesting/scoring against any model composition no matter how strong that's not a very specific counter. Cryx is number 1 in terms of incorp abuse, Grymkins are number 2, coincidentally they're #1 and #2 in wtc winrates. This one issue may solve itself with mercs in themes.
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Post by macdaddy on Sept 27, 2017 16:42:49 GMT
I understand that Denny1 creates a negative play experience and is tough to play against in GF. While Coven is tough, however, does that caster produce a negative play experience (any more so than any other tough caster)? They don't debuff to the same degree, they don't completely stop your turn, they have some defensive tech and a bunch of stuff to help with movement. They're tricky and tough to pin down, but do they create the same negative play experience? They are almost impossible to assassinate and have a timewalk feat. Coven is bonkers. No question. I would say they are less of an NPE as they are just blatantly powerful and hard to beat. Denny is an NPE because her tech just says no to what people try to do during a turn. weak attacks, low accuracy, low speed, combined witha timewalk feat make her awful to play against. (IME)
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Post by Cryptix on Sept 28, 2017 0:26:07 GMT
I wouldnt mind if skarre1 got a limit to her feat as haley2 did, max d3+5 affected models seems ok. Regarding coven idk... I know the Ball is almost unkillable but if you manage to kill a witch the power level goes down quite a bit, and they are arm13 so... plus they are not haley2, the coven gives you either the alpha or a turn to get there, plus the oponent still gets to do suff, haley2 got 2 turns of shooting and made the enemy completely useless... maybe the way reinforcing the power field works with the coven could change, and only one witch gets to do it, but I dont think its an OP caster. The wraith engine in IM for free points doesnt make much sense to me as "Most of these dark factories churn out endless thralls and warjacks following time-tested patterns to support the war efforts of the Dragonfather" but thats just my opinion. We shall see if the meta adjusts and cryx win rate falls or if you are right and a nerf is needed, keep in mind all the other factions are geting their TF too. But she does have a limit for her feat?
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Post by grotsnik on Sept 28, 2017 1:34:34 GMT
But she does have a limit for her feat? Yeah, 15 models at a great risk... I dont think cryx needs nerfs, I personally think its in a good spot, but Im just saying I would still not mind if denny1 and skarre1 got minor nerfs. Coven seems fine to me, its hard to kill, but it doesnt spell sling much and has no way of making its army hit (and only has a -2arm debuff), it grants the alpha and has a great mobility game though, but thats it.
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npe
Junior Strategist
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Post by npe on Sept 28, 2017 2:16:33 GMT
But she does have a limit for her feat? Yeah, 15 models at a great risk... I dont think cryx needs nerfs, I personally think its in a good spot, but Im just saying I would still not mind if denny1 and skarre1 got minor nerfs. Coven seems fine to me, its hard to kill, but it doesnt spell sling much and has no way of making its army hit (and only has a -2arm debuff), it grants the alpha and has a great mobility game though, but thats it. The main reason the Coven irks me is that there's no real compelling reason to run Agathia instead. Agathia has a (pretty wimpy) personal assassination game but other than that her spells are vanilla in comparison (stygian abyss vs hellfire, infernal machine vs hellwrought) and her feat isn't nearly as powerful from a control perspective. If they got rebalanced (eg. Venethrax and Morty1 swapping spells around) so that both were compelling to play I'd be really happy.
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Deller
Junior Strategist
I’m on a Boat
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Post by Deller on Sept 28, 2017 2:36:49 GMT
Yeah, 15 models at a great risk... I dont think cryx needs nerfs, I personally think its in a good spot, but Im just saying I would still not mind if denny1 and skarre1 got minor nerfs. Coven seems fine to me, its hard to kill, but it doesnt spell sling much and has no way of making its army hit (and only has a -2arm debuff), it grants the alpha and has a great mobility game though, but thats it. The main reason the Coven irks me is that there's no real compelling reason to run Agathia instead. Agathia has a (pretty wimpy) personal assassination game but other than that her spells are vanilla in comparison (stygian abyss vs hellfire, infernal machine vs hellwrought) and her feat isn't nearly as powerful from a control perspective. If they got rebalanced (eg. Venethrax and Morty1 swapping spells around) so that both were compelling to play I'd be really happy. Agathia is compelling in Black Industries where she can run Desecrators at no real cost since she herself is a bane.
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