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Post by Big Fat Troll on Sept 25, 2017 4:02:42 GMT
I just about busted a gut. conflictchamber.com/#c4501b_-0g0Z19191h1h2DhC2b203g203f203fbB___-0BdTc3i22E2k2ndWdWbBCryx Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] The Ghost Fleet (Coven 1) The Witch Coven of Garlghast [+26] - Deathripper [6] - Deathripper [6] - Stalker [8] - Stalker [8] Captain Rengrave [0(5)] Hellslinger Phantom [0(7)] Blackbane's Ghost Raiders (max) [17] Revenant Crew of the Atramentous (min) [9] - Revenant Crew Rifleman (3) [6] Revenant Crew of the Atramentous (min) [9] - Revenant Crew Rifleman (2) [4] Revenant Crew of the Atramentous (min) [9] - Revenant Crew Rifleman (2) [4] Wraith Engine [15] Cryx Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Dark Host (Goreshade 3) Goreshade, Lord of Ruin [+27] - Kraken [36] Bane Lord Tartarus [0(6)] Darragh Wrathe [9] Machine Wraith [0(2)] Necrotech [2] Bane Riders (max) [20] Bane Riders (max) [20] Wraith Engine [15] Okay, we knew the Coven was very strong, but see that Goreshade 3 list? Does that look familiar to anyone else? It is almost EXACTLY the list I played in the Banes CID! Literally, the ONLY difference is the Necrotech instead of what I had, which was either a second Machine Wraith or a Skarlock at various points. The Necrotech is probably better there because both the Kraken and Wraith Engine can be repaired. Okay, let me see... Sascha played Goreshade only once. That was in Round 2 to defeat a Hexeris 2 beast brick. And the main list was really just the Coven version of Ghost Fleet, built to take down Cygnar and other Cryx? I will need to study that caster much more, given their prevalence in the meta right now. |
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Post by cmHK on Sept 25, 2017 7:11:57 GMT
Sascha played goreshade3 with cav in mk2. Him and archbomad (cruixshanks) are the founders of that list. CID only revived (ha!) because riders got better as they needed it making the list possible to play again.
I'm the other goreshade3 player from netherlands. Dropped him 5 times, won 4 games. I've talked with Sascha about the his pairing prior to the event and he wanted to play shade3 and felt he needed coven for the mirror and cygnar, so that is exactly as you guessed. Sad to see hik drop coven 5 times because I know shade is his favorite caster, but hey, what do you want from someone who has a shot to win it all.
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Deller
Junior Strategist
I’m on a Boat
Posts: 605 
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Post by Deller on Sept 25, 2017 11:28:53 GMT
It's important to remember that team tournament lists do not always translate well into solo event tournaments. The ability to dodge extremely bad matchups and entire factions is a massive difference.
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Post by darkshroud on Sept 25, 2017 13:58:44 GMT
It's important to remember that team tournament lists do not always translate well into solo event tournaments. The ability to dodge extremely bad matchups and entire factions is a massive difference. which is what i hope people take away from the us winning 63%? of our games. they just had to pair ghost fleet against someone who couldnt deal wit hit. |
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zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
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Post by zich on Sept 25, 2017 14:05:02 GMT
I think Sascha talked about his lists for a bit in the post-round-5 interview on the stream, if you are interested.
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Post by jisidro on Sept 25, 2017 14:34:11 GMT
It's important to remember that team tournament lists do not always translate well into solo event tournaments. The ability to dodge extremely bad matchups and entire factions is a massive difference.
This cuts both ways... And even if teams threw someone under the bus to take the Cryx away from the equation and thus infalted the wining % that speaks volumes about relative power.
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Post by misomiso on Sept 25, 2017 17:58:57 GMT
I saw an interview with the guy (sasha) on Twitch, and he said he played Coven as it was much better in the mirror, and was better against the anti ghost fleet tech.
He said Denegra has ended up as a 'win more' caster, where as Coven is better against the worse matchups.
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Post by bloodhawk on Sept 25, 2017 21:44:11 GMT
My gaming group has used the win stats for Coven and Denny1 to suggest nerfs are coming to both of them. Curious what the community here thinks? I am just starting Cryx and am really excited to give Coven a try. Do you all think the team format played significantly into the win %? Obviously they are significantly above the general average so I could see some tweaks coming. Below are the numbers I saw.
Coven 60 wins, 19 losses.
Denny1 79 wins, 42 losses.
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Kavrae
Junior Strategist
Posts: 182
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Post by Kavrae on Sept 25, 2017 21:52:00 GMT
I honestly would not be surprised to see something happen to both of them. But that should not change what you play unless you're also playing in a super competitive scene (which you're not since you just started). I suggest playing what sounds fun or interesting then worrying about what's meta-powerful later. I fell into that trap, and wasted a lot of money chasing the metagame when I should have just stuck with what I found fun.
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Post by bloodhawk on Sept 25, 2017 21:59:21 GMT
I honestly would not be surprised to see something happen to both of them. But that should not change what you play unless you're also playing in a super competitive scene (which you're not since you just started). I suggest playing what sounds fun or interesting then worrying about what's meta-powerful later. I fell into that trap, and wasted a lot of money chasing the metagame when I should have just stuck with what I found fun. That's good advice, I definitely appreciate it. In this case I am new to the faction and not the game. I have played Circle for about 2 years and Legion for about a year. I very recently started Cryx to get a bit of a different play style as I tend to play very beast heavy in both Circle and Legion. I personally have no problem with nerfs for either caster as long as they are done in a smart way. For example, I was heavy into Circle competitively when they nerfed Wurmwood. That nerf was perfect, it kept the flavor of him intact and brought his power down slightly without invalidating him as a caster. I hope they can do similar things to these two if they are adjusted. |
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npe
Junior Strategist
Posts: 221
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Post by npe on Sept 25, 2017 23:25:44 GMT
My gaming group has used the win stats for Coven and Denny1 to suggest nerfs are coming to both of them. Curious what the community here thinks? I am just starting Cryx and am really excited to give Coven a try. Do you all think the team format played significantly into the win %? Obviously they are significantly above the general average so I could see some tweaks coming. Below are the numbers I saw. Coven 60 wins, 19 losses. Denny1 79 wins, 42 losses. I'd love to see both the Coven and Denny1 get a nerf and our casters with minimal tournament representation (eg. Sturgis2, Agathia, Skarre2) get corresponding bumps. |
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Deller
Junior Strategist
I’m on a Boat
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Post by Deller on Sept 26, 2017 2:54:53 GMT
The entire faction overperformed, it's not just Deneghra1 & Coven.
Win Rates:
Asphyxious1: 17 plays, 58.82%
Asphyxious2: 17 plays, 52.94%
Asphyxious3: 1 play, 100%
Deneghra1: 120 plays, 65.83%
Deneghra2: 11 plays, 63.64%
Skarre1: 15 plays, 73.33%
Skarre2: 4 plays, 100%
Goreshade1: 3 plays, 66.67%
Goreshade2: 6 plays, 83.33%
Goreshade3: 6 plays, 83.33%
Terminus: 14 plays, 50%
Coven: 78 plays, 76.92%
Scaverous: 13 plays, 61.54%
Ghost Fleet: 154 plays, 66.23%
Dark Host: 123 plays, 71.54%
Infernal Machines: 8 plays, 87.5%
No theme: 20 plays, 55%
Like seriously the worst performing caster was Terminus at 50%. The issue evidently isn't Deneghra1 & Coven, the entire faction overperformed here with 13/20 casters represented.
*There is a slight data error since the Cryx player on Greece Prime was listed as losing with Krueger2 in round 3, so either Terminus or Skarre1 has one more loss than computed which would push Terminus to down to 46.67% of 15 games or Skarre1 down to 68.75% of 16 games.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Sept 26, 2017 3:43:38 GMT
I wouldn't be shocked to see a nerf to Denny1, since she's the driving force behind Ghost Fleet, and she's one of the few 'old guard' S=tier casters not to eat a nerf yet.
For Dark Host, my feeling is that the theme list itself is too strong, more or less independent of caster. Coven is probably the worst offender, but there are plenty of others that make it a problem. If we see any nerfs there, it'll probably be to key pieces of that theme's architecture. Maybe the Wraith Engine (which would have the side effect of hitting some variants of ghost fleet) maybe some of the banes.
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Post by custardboy on Sept 26, 2017 7:59:19 GMT
Yeah I'm very surprised Denny1 has managed to dodge nerfs so far. She was and is one of the most notorious negative play experiences and brutally powerful casters around. I still haven't managed to lose with her.
Coven... eh. They're good, but they're a counter to high threat ranges. I don't feel like they're in the same category as Denny.
It IS very interesting that every part of Cryx had a positive win %. Did you remove the mirror from the overall and caster win %? I heard elsewhere that the overall win rate with the mirror removed was 71%.
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Post by Gamingdevil on Sept 26, 2017 8:17:13 GMT
I'm responsible for the 100% Asphyxious 3 win-rate  I played it once into the mirror, because my opponent was very likely to drop his Denny 2 specifically built for Ghost Fleet (double Gunslingers, Deathjack for double Hellmouth, Darragh for an extra Hellfire) The list is great into Ghost Fleet and probably Dark Host but couldn't do much against Gaspy. So it might be worth noting that. The community as a whole has been talking about nerfing Denny for a while and I would be ok with it, but I really hope they go with something like removing the run/charge and possibly the special attacks clause from the feat instead of gutting her. I'm not sure if Coven is really that bad, they are really good into ranged lists of course, but they actually got worse since MK2 (no more cheaper spells and Infernal Machine is actually worse) when they were hardly played at all. I really don't understand how PP thought it was a good idea to allow the Wraith Engine for free points in Dark Host. If it should be anywhere, it should be in Infernal Machines and it might be too much even there. The fact that it's incorporeal until it actually does something is huge for it, but some lists can kill it through Incorporeal and all lists can kill it after it attacked. All the battle engines are actually really strong now, so I'm not sure if the Wraith Engine itself is the problem, just the free points for playing 2 of them. |
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I played it once into the mirror, because my opponent was very likely to drop his Denny 2 specifically built for Ghost Fleet (double Gunslingers, Deathjack for double Hellmouth, Darragh for an extra Hellfire) The list is great into Ghost Fleet and probably Dark Host but couldn't do much against Gaspy. So it might be worth noting that.