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Post by phantasmagorium on Mar 22, 2017 18:23:56 GMT
Ofc you can find an exception or two, someone is bound to have luck or just simply outplay his opponents if you give it enough time. Doesn't change the fact that circle theme forces are behind compared to other factions. Don't see how you can argue anything else. 95% of circle players play out of theme. What does it look like in your faction, 95% in theme? Talking one list in tournament pairing. In my experience, Devourer's Host is great. First, you don't lose Ghetorix even if you're not Kromac. Second, all your beasts get snacking. If you're playing Kaya3, those two things by themselves should be getting your attention. You lose out on three or four fury a turn if you pay for a Wilder, Lanyssa, and both Blackclads; but honestly, if you're bringing all of that you're bringing too much support anyways. You can also pretty easily get 10~15 free points of models if you're playing an unit-oriented caster; I have no problems putting together a Tanith list I like with this theme, and probably a Morv2 one too. The wold theme has been put to very good use with Baldur2 Double Woldwrath lists that a ton of lists have a real hard time taking out. Niche, but solid. The Wolf Sworn list... eh. Maybe you could work something out because Skinwalkers are Wolf Sworn now, but Tharn infantry are almost universally better, so... I guess Tracker could be useful to Una2, maybe?
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Mar 23, 2017 1:17:08 GMT
Ofc you can find an exception or two, someone is bound to have luck or just simply outplay his opponents if you give it enough time. Doesn't change the fact that circle theme forces are behind compared to other factions. Don't see how you can argue anything else. 95% of circle players play out of theme. What does it look like in your faction, 95% in theme? Talking one list in tournament pairing. "everyone does this" is a bad argument.
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Post by sideshowlucifer on Mar 23, 2017 2:43:52 GMT
Wolf Sworn is my favorite of the lists. Ambushing a unit of WoO with attachment is pretty solid. There is also plenty of beasts allowed and Reeves. Tanith does pretty well in this theme. Devourer's Host gives up the Sentry Stones, something Circle has a hard time doing and the male Tharn just kinda suck. That theme pretty much lives by the female Tharn and Ghetto. Imagine the Cygnar themes disallowing JR Warcasters and/or Stormlances. It would cripple Cygnar pretty hard. That's how this theme feels for a lot of Circle players. The Wold theme pretty much gives next to nothing to Wolds and it has a hard time handling both infantry and Armor due to speed and hitting power. The Wold limitations are fine, but they really need to add a damage buff to the Stoneshapers and the CiD opportunity to fix the Wolds a little bit just by it's release timing hurts a lot.
For Circle, it's going to be tough to come out with a lot of decent themes since they have three subparr ones already that cover three of the very distinct traits of the faction. I'd guess we will probably get a flying circus theme sometime next, which I would be equally unexcited for.
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Post by ratrek on Mar 23, 2017 6:14:56 GMT
Ofc you can find an exception or two, someone is bound to have luck or just simply outplay his opponents if you give it enough time. Doesn't change the fact that circle theme forces are behind compared to other factions. Don't see how you can argue anything else. 95% of circle players play out of theme. What does it look like in your faction, 95% in theme? Talking one list in tournament pairing. "everyone does this" is a bad argument. True. But I also think using Colin as proof that a theme is great isn't fair either. He's what, a top 10 players in the world? He'd beat most people with Sturgis and 3 Gobber Tinkers backing him up. No one said Assault Corps were just fine in mk2 when Pagani won an Iron Gaunlet with them and this feels like the same argument.
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Post by macdaddy on Mar 23, 2017 6:41:16 GMT
Wolf sworn and Wold them have the same issue, they really only work best with 1 caster. Wold them works with Baldur 2 who like the durable heavling heavies/Gargs (I've had success with a No woldwrath variant too) wolf sworn them works great with grayle and ok with Mohsar. Tharn them I can think of quite a few casters who can use it. My preferred caster is Baldur 1 for Immunity to blast damage and no knockdown on the 14 Ravagers walking your way. Plus cycling SS on the Ravagers boats means a lot of Pow 15 charge attacks after feat Turn I'm hoping we get a Druids/Blackclad theme here soon.
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zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
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Post by zich on Mar 23, 2017 7:03:31 GMT
I'd really just like a theme that reads: "Generic [faction] theme: Everything allowed, for every 30p of [faction] models add one solo or command attachement of up to 5p cost (each) to the army for free. These don't count towards the threshold for free solos/CAs."
Just to not have to play 15p down every time I want to play something other than spam.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Mar 23, 2017 11:35:13 GMT
"everyone does this" is a bad argument. True. But I also think using Colin as proof that a theme is great isn't fair either. He's what, a top 10 players in the world? He'd beat most people with Sturgis and 3 Gobber Tinkers backing him up. No one said Assault Corps were just fine in mk2 when Pagani won an Iron Gaunlet with them and this feels like the same argument. Fact is that the thing holding back a lot of legitimate options from winning is perception. Colin won with the same models that you all have. Dylan isn't exactly a pushover who you can just "outskill" either.
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Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on Mar 23, 2017 13:42:46 GMT
True. But I also think using Colin as proof that a theme is great isn't fair either. He's what, a top 10 players in the world? He'd beat most people with Sturgis and 3 Gobber Tinkers backing him up. No one said Assault Corps were just fine in mk2 when Pagani won an Iron Gaunlet with them and this feels like the same argument. Fact is that the thing holding back a lot of legitimate options from winning is perception. Colin won with the same models that you all have. Dylan isn't exactly a pushover who you can just "outskill" either. I've found this to be true repetitively. Options people have been screaming about online as horrible continue to show up in local meta and perform quite well, from banes to stormguard to deliverers. Most options actually DO play well, sometimes it's just a matter of considering why you bring them.
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Post by phantasmagorium on Mar 23, 2017 15:43:03 GMT
Imagine the Cygnar themes disallowing JR Warcasters and/or Stormlances. It would cripple Cygnar pretty hard. I disagree. "Cripple" is a very strong word, and Cygnar can win without either of those things if it needs to. I've done it. They do make it a lot easier, though, I admit. Neither are Sentry Stones anywhere close to crippling to be without. They're very strong, sure. But convincing yourself something is mandatory is a bad call. It makes you a weaker player, because you aren't prepared for when you don't have those things ("I brought Sentry stones!" "Okay, my two Hunters/Defenders/other kill them bottom of one. Sup.") or for when they are irrelevant (Vyros2, for example). I can understand not liking have to do without them, because that makes picking the theme force an important choice. Kind of like how Storm Division literally only has access to Pathfinder if you play Maddox, so you accept that the terrain might screw you super hard by picking that list. Male Tharn aren't bad, but they certainly aren't great, either, I'll agree with you there (other than White Manes, especially *free* White Manes). Good thing you can bring two units of Wolf Riders and a unit of Blood Trackers (or the Wolf Rider solo, I guess) and get a bunch of free stuff. --- On an unrelated note, how bout dem Khador themes?
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Post by Ereshkigal on Mar 23, 2017 17:01:31 GMT
Judging by tournament results the themes are a 50% of the lists of the top players on average. And it's exactly the number that PP wanted (as Pagani said it in an interview long time ago) and imho there is nothing wrong with that, given that a player not using a theme list has the same chances to win or lose against someone using one. It feels like it's the case, right now.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Mar 23, 2017 17:32:00 GMT
On an unrelated note, how bout dem Khador themes? I hate Jaws. I hate it with a burning passion. Legion had something cool. It was thematic and unique. It made a freaking difference with our playstyle and it was restrictive as f***. Now Khador has a "play jack spam, remove enemy AD, , profit" theme. I hate it beyond all things they've done with this game. I hate it worse than loosing tenacity, spiny growth being self, nerfing every beast by 1spd/str/fury. I hate it more than anything. Because we finally got some sort of faction identity of being fast scouts and controlling the battlefield, and the GAVE IT TO KHADOR! I will not accept it. I refuse. I will be that guy on this one occasion. I will not put up with that theme list's existence.
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Post by Cryptix on Mar 23, 2017 17:41:29 GMT
On an unrelated note, how bout dem Khador themes? I hate Jaws. I hate it with a burning passion. Legion had something cool. It was thematic and unique. It made a freaking difference with our playstyle and it was restrictive as f***. Now Khador has a "play jack spam, remove enemy AD, , profit" theme. I hate it beyond all things they've done with this game. I hate it worse than loosing tenacity, spiny growth being self, nerfing every beast by 1spd/str/fury. I hate it more than anything. Because we finally got some sort of faction identity of being fast scouts and controlling the battlefield, and the GAVE IT TO KHADOR! I will not accept it. I refuse. I will be that guy on this one occasion. I will not put up with that theme list's existence.
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Post by phantasmagorium on Mar 23, 2017 17:44:17 GMT
On an unrelated note, how bout dem Khador themes? I hate Jaws. I hate it with a burning passion. Legion had something cool. It was thematic and unique. It made a freaking difference with our playstyle and it was restrictive as f***. Now Khador has a "play jack spam, remove enemy AD, , profit" theme. I hate it beyond all things they've done with this game. I hate it worse than loosing tenacity, spiny growth being self, nerfing every beast by 1spd/str/fury. I hate it more than anything. Because we finally got some sort of faction identity of being fast scouts and controlling the battlefield, and the GAVE IT TO KHADOR! I will not accept it. I refuse. I will be that guy on this one occasion. I will not put up with that theme list's existence. I mean, I'm sure Cygnar would like all of their Gun Mages back, and Cryx probably wishes Goreshade wasn't leaving, and Retribution wants to know why the hell Aiyana won't return their calls anymore. Nobody has a monopoly on anything in this game, not really. That said, I'm definitely not looking forward to having to play against Jaws on the table.
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steck
BattleBox Champ
Posts: 51
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Post by steck on Mar 23, 2017 18:01:21 GMT
Judging by tournament results the themes are a 50% of the lists of the top players on average. And it's exactly the number that PP wanted (as Pagani said it in an interview long time ago) and imho there is nothing wrong with that, given that a player not using a theme list has the same chances to win or lose against someone using one. It feels like it's the case, right now. I dont know how good of an argument that is when most factions only have one theme and so many people think (rightfully or not) that the one or two (or more) themes are garbage. I have a feeling as the number of themes goes up so will the percentage of people playing them. The new cryx theme infernal machines for instance seems to fit a lot of lists with one or two tweaks, just give the cryx players time to decide if they like that extra movement or not.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Mar 23, 2017 18:09:06 GMT
I mean, I'm sure Cygnar would like all of their Gun Mages back, and Cryx probably wishes Goreshade wasn't leaving, and Retribution wants to know why the hell Aiyana won't return their calls anymore. Nobody has a monopoly on anything in this game, not really. That said, I'm definitely not looking forward to having to play against Jaws on the table. I understand there is no monopoly. Hell Strakhov go Zaal's signature spell Last Stand. That happens. It's creative options. <rant> But why is the slowest faction in the game given a theme to deny setups faster than themselves? Why is the slowest faction in the game the one with the most movement buffs? What is the purpose of a flaw if you have all the tools to compensate for it? It's ridiculous. Where's the legion theme that gives all our models armor, oh wait we got on and it only applies that buff to the smallest subset of models in our faction. Wheres a legion theme that fixes our fury issues, or discounts all our beast by the 30% overcost? We have flaws that we still have to play with. </rant> Seriously though I'm hating how themes are going. I'll play the base game, thank you. you can keep the broken dlc.
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