|
Post by elladan52 on Mar 23, 2017 18:51:58 GMT
On an unrelated note, how bout dem Khador themes? I hate Jaws. I hate it with a burning passion. Legion had something cool. It was thematic and unique. It made a freaking difference with our playstyle and it was restrictive as f***. Now Khador has a "play jack spam, remove enemy AD, , profit" theme. I hate it beyond all things they've done with this game. I hate it worse than loosing tenacity, spiny growth being self, nerfing every beast by 1spd/str/fury. I hate it more than anything. Because we finally got some sort of faction identity of being fast scouts and controlling the battlefield, and the GAVE IT TO KHADOR! I will not accept it. I refuse. I will be that guy on this one occasion. I will not put up with that theme list's existence. Hit Squad says "hi" from beyond the grave.
|
|
|
Post by socialirregular on Mar 23, 2017 20:04:29 GMT
I mean, I'm sure Cygnar would like all of their Gun Mages back, and Cryx probably wishes Goreshade wasn't leaving, and Retribution wants to know why the hell Aiyana won't return their calls anymore. Nobody has a monopoly on anything in this game, not really. That said, I'm definitely not looking forward to having to play against Jaws on the table. I understand there is no monopoly. Hell Strakhov go Zaal's signature spell Last Stand. That happens. It's creative options. <rant> But why is the slowest faction in the game given a theme to deny setups faster than themselves? Why is the slowest faction in the game the one with the most movement buffs? What is the purpose of a flaw if you have all the tools to compensate for it? It's ridiculous. Where's the legion theme that gives all our models armor, oh wait we got on and it only applies that buff to the smallest subset of models in our faction. Wheres a legion theme that fixes our fury issues, or discounts all our beast by the 30% overcost? We have flaws that we still have to play with. </rant> Seriously though I'm hating how themes are going. I'll play the base game, thank you. you can keep the broken dlc. Firetrucking +1. Getting tired of PP's B-S lately. I still hold on to the shred of a hope that once CID is in full swing a lot of this will get sorted out. But I'm sure that IF it does happen, it won't be for a long while. Continuing on with the MKIII beta... Edit: On a side-note feelin' bad for Circle. It's going to affect them the most, I know much chagrined with just Legion have no-AD.
|
|
|
Post by phantasmagorium on Mar 23, 2017 20:05:31 GMT
I mean, I'm sure Cygnar would like all of their Gun Mages back, and Cryx probably wishes Goreshade wasn't leaving, and Retribution wants to know why the hell Aiyana won't return their calls anymore. Nobody has a monopoly on anything in this game, not really. That said, I'm definitely not looking forward to having to play against Jaws on the table. I understand there is no monopoly. Hell Strakhov go Zaal's signature spell Last Stand. That happens. It's creative options. <rant> But why is the slowest faction in the game given a theme to deny setups faster than themselves? Why is the slowest faction in the game the one with the most movement buffs? What is the purpose of a flaw if you have all the tools to compensate for it? It's ridiculous. Where's the legion theme that gives all our models armor, oh wait we got on and it only applies that buff to the smallest subset of models in our faction. Wheres a legion theme that fixes our fury issues, or discounts all our beast by the 30% overcost? We have flaws that we still have to play with. </rant> Seriously though I'm hating how themes are going. I'll play the base game, thank you. you can keep the broken dlc. I'm not trying to be argumentative, but Khador isn't the slowest faction. Menoth almost certainly has that dubious honor. Khador does have some slow base stats, but they have lots of ways to make that not matter. I think I'd have been fine with it if it had been a caster-restricted theme - Strakhov, Kozlov, Irusk, Sorscha, maybe Vlad or Malakov. The guys that are going to be using Khador's scouts in the way the theme's fluff blurb describes - to make sure that the enemy isn't wrecking the armor column before it gets there. I'm gonna have my first game against it under Karchev tonight and I am not looking forward to how bad that's going to go.
|
|
|
Post by sideshowlucifer on Mar 23, 2017 21:04:47 GMT
Imagine the Cygnar themes disallowing JR Warcasters and/or Stormlances. It would cripple Cygnar pretty hard. I disagree. "Cripple" is a very strong word, and Cygnar can win without either of those things if it needs to. I've done it. They do make it a lot easier, though, I admit. Most Circle players would argue with you. Those sentry stones are one of the few things in faction that give us one of our defining characteristics. We need to be able to deliver our stuff for it to have a chance. Without those forests, it becomes a shooting gallery on tourney tables all too often. Now, if we had other ways to generate forests, that would be fine, but currently it's them or Woldwardens, which are way too expensive and also not in the theme. Circle already has basically 3 sub-factions that don't work very well together, then the themes further that divide even more and make things really restrictive.
|
|
|
Post by phantasmagorium on Mar 23, 2017 21:43:37 GMT
Most Circle players would argue with you. Those sentry stones are one of the few things in faction that give us one of our defining characteristics. We need to be able to deliver our stuff for it to have a chance. Without those forests, it becomes a shooting gallery on tourney tables all too often. Now, if we had other ways to generate forests, that would be fine, but currently it's them or Woldwardens, which are way too expensive and also not in the theme. Circle already has basically 3 sub-factions that don't work very well together, then the themes further that divide even more and make things really restrictive. So... two three inch forests are why you think Devourer's Host is bad. I'm sorry, but 6" of forest is a mild annoyance, not an army-delivering wall. Circle is hardly unique in having a bunch of sub-themes that don't mesh well together. That's the case for almost every single faction (in some cases since the beginning of Mk2), and almost certainly a driving factor in why the game is becoming theme-oriented.
|
|
Tucker
Junior Strategist
Posts: 103
|
Post by Tucker on Mar 23, 2017 21:56:45 GMT
I hate Jaws. I hate it with a burning passion. Legion had something cool. It was thematic and unique. It made a freaking difference with our playstyle and it was restrictive as f***. Now Khador has a "play jack spam, remove enemy AD, , profit" theme. I hate it beyond all things they've done with this game. I hate it worse than loosing tenacity, spiny growth being self, nerfing every beast by 1spd/str/fury. I hate it more than anything. Because we finally got some sort of faction identity of being fast scouts and controlling the battlefield, and the GAVE IT TO KHADOR! I will not accept it. I refuse. I will be that guy on this one occasion. I will not put up with that theme list's existence. Hit Squad says "hi" from beyond the grave. Anastasia from MKI says "hi" to Hit Squad. Limiting Advance Deploy is a terrible rule because some models (e.g. Araduses, Sentry Stones) need the rule to function. Losing it is a crippling disadvantage and makes them substantially less playable against those theme forces.
|
|
|
Post by sideshowlucifer on Mar 24, 2017 3:15:02 GMT
The reason I think the Tharn theme is bad is because it limits a lot of tools that are a staple in the faction for negligible benefits. The heart tokens are good with the death wolves for sure but that is a single small character unit. They are ok with Kromac2 but not at the cost of threat extension and forest creation for an army that loves to fight in forests. The UAs for the Tharn are pretty much a non-issue and allowable solos in theme are less than exciting. You basically build around the Death Wolves and the snacking for beasts.
|
|
|
Post by Rowdy Dragon on Mar 24, 2017 5:05:13 GMT
Whilst Im not happy with any List Based on Spam, but as a Khador Player I believe that Jaws of the Wolf isn't nearly the Golden Bullet People make out to be.
Khador has to give up most of their most staple stuff (Winter guard, IFP, and any such support) to gain its advantages. Even with Kharchev he has to give up his much beloved Reinholt in order to benefit. And any access to Ranged Magical weapon on jacks requires marshalling which he doesn't really want at all whatsoever.
Im not really seeing whats so evil about Jaws that isn't more evil about Winter Guard Kommand.
Id say why Khador is benefitting the most from Theme forces is because Khador is one of the best Designed Thematically.
Sans Maybe Doom reavers (And even those are tied together with Greylords) I can actually imagine all the stuff they have working together in a singular army (Assuming the Assasins assassinate and don't run down the gosh damned battlefield). Everybody in Khador mostly LIKES each other.
Its easier to design a Theme for them I guess. Like even with an Army with Only Access to Koldun Lords and Doom Reavers I could still see some traction with that. And I bet 100 Bucks that it will grant Immunity to Cold to Grant Warjacks Freezer.
|
|
|
Post by octaviusmaximus on Mar 24, 2017 5:13:40 GMT
The reason I think the Tharn theme is bad is because it limits a lot of tools that are a staple in the faction for negligible benefits. The heart tokens are good with the death wolves for sure but that is a single small character unit. They are ok with Kromac2 but not at the cost of threat extension and forest creation for an army that loves to fight in forests. The UAs for the Tharn are pretty much a non-issue and allowable solos in theme are less than exciting. You basically build around the Death Wolves and the snacking for beasts. Feel free to say your opinion on something. That doesn't mean that thing is bad. The Tharn theme has already been successfully used. Colin Hill seemed to think that he wasn't held back by his choice. His worst matchup was, well, me, and I should have beat him but made a big mistake. The biggest reason I had such an advantage was that Nemo 3 beats both pre-nerf una 2 and Kreugar 1. [/quote]
|
|
Lanz
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
|
Post by Lanz on Mar 24, 2017 5:25:41 GMT
On an unrelated note, how bout dem Khador themes? I hate Jaws. I hate it with a burning passion. Legion had something cool. It was thematic and unique. It made a freaking difference with our playstyle and it was restrictive as f***. Now Khador has a "play jack spam, remove enemy AD, , profit" theme. I hate it beyond all things they've done with this game. I hate it worse than loosing tenacity, spiny growth being self, nerfing every beast by 1spd/str/fury. I hate it more than anything. Because we finally got some sort of faction identity of being fast scouts and controlling the battlefield, and the GAVE IT TO KHADOR! I will not accept it. I refuse. I will be that guy on this one occasion. I will not put up with that theme list's existence. It made me think something else, honestly. What if Legion and Khador aren't the only ones and anti-AD tech crops up elsewhere? It wouldn't even matter if we played Ravens or not, because if a serious anti-AD meta emerges, then every time anyone takes AD they have to consider that they may be paying those points for nothing, and players may start shying away from AD where it matters anyways. In a way, the Khador access to the theme list benefits Legion in so far that it further discourages the same thing, which affects players at a list-building stage. The downside, obviously, is we now have to worry about potentially going up AGAINST anti-AD. But even that is basically just deathstalkers and bayal, and bayal will likely only crop up where he's free anyhow.
|
|
|
Post by octaviusmaximus on Mar 24, 2017 7:16:24 GMT
I hate Jaws. I hate it with a burning passion. Legion had something cool. It was thematic and unique. It made a freaking difference with our playstyle and it was restrictive as f***. Now Khador has a "play jack spam, remove enemy AD, , profit" theme. I hate it beyond all things they've done with this game. I hate it worse than loosing tenacity, spiny growth being self, nerfing every beast by 1spd/str/fury. I hate it more than anything. Because we finally got some sort of faction identity of being fast scouts and controlling the battlefield, and the GAVE IT TO KHADOR! I will not accept it. I refuse. I will be that guy on this one occasion. I will not put up with that theme list's existence. It made me think something else, honestly. What if Legion and Khador aren't the only ones and anti-AD tech crops up elsewhere? It wouldn't even matter if we played Ravens or not, because if a serious anti-AD meta emerges, then every time anyone takes AD they have to consider that they may be paying those points for nothing, and players may start shying away from AD where it matters anyways. In a way, the Khador access to the theme list benefits Legion in so far that it further discourages the same thing, which affects players at a list-building stage. The downside, obviously, is we now have to worry about potentially going up AGAINST anti-AD. But even that is basically just deathstalkers and bayal, and bayal will likely only crop up where he's free anyhow. You should have seen what happened when Cygnar players realised other players could play Storm Division...
|
|
|
Post by sideshowlucifer on Mar 24, 2017 10:33:13 GMT
I'm not saying it can't win Ocatvius. Any of them have a chance at winning. I'm saying as defined by people here, a good theme force would make the Tharn worth taking since it's their theme force, yet it doesn't really do much for them. I've already stated the merits of it for specific models. I feel it's a bad theme (because your right, this is just opinion) because it is restrictive for very little benefit compared to other ones which are pretty open and contain the "necessary" models for those factions. I would have much preferred the theme to include forest generation for the Tree Walking Tharn or something to help fix the male Tharn in general. Snacking is a neat ability and fitting, but the heart tokens are corner case mostly. It would be akin to disallowing the key models from any faction for just corner-case advantages. In truth, I feel all the themes should be this restrictive, but since they aren't, it puts this one at a disadvantage.
|
|
|
Post by ForEver_Blight on Mar 24, 2017 12:14:14 GMT
Whilst Im not happy with any List Based on Spam, but as a Khador Player I believe that Jaws of the Wolf isn't nearly the Golden Bullet People make out to be. I've not been saying it's a golden bullet. I'm not arguing power. I'm arguing they took our theme bonus that was actually unique. But it's an argument that falls flat because apparently lots of themes will be out for everyone, eventually, and there is going to be far more overlap than anyone wants. *cough* ambush *cough cough*
|
|
|
Post by elladan52 on Mar 24, 2017 14:35:21 GMT
Whilst Im not happy with any List Based on Spam, but as a Khador Player I believe that Jaws of the Wolf isn't nearly the Golden Bullet People make out to be. I've not been saying it's a golden bullet. I'm not arguing power. I'm arguing they took our theme bonus that was actually unique. But it's an argument that falls flat because apparently lots of themes will be out for everyone, eventually, and there is going to be far more overlap than anyone wants. *cough* ambush *cough cough* Which is a poor argument, because it was not unique. The same bonus has existed before in other factions and apparently on other models. I get where you are coming from, I really do. Khador has taken a few things that were unique to Skorne as well, and I have felt exactly what you are feeling. But it's not productive, it's not really accurate, and it's not a great reason for being upset. Legion has plenty of rules/themes/interactions that used to be unique to other factions, too.
|
|
princeraven
Junior Strategist
Shredder spam is best spam
Posts: 256
|
Post by princeraven on Mar 24, 2017 15:05:55 GMT
My problem with Jaws isn't that it gained a benefit that was previously unique in Mk III it's that it gained a benefit that is devestatingly powerful in the right match-ups that another faction had to to deal with heavy restrictions to get access to while a standard Khador jack spam list fits neatly into Jaws losing at most Reinholdt and Ruin.
It's also yet another "don't spend any points on the models the theme force is built around but get the benefits anyway" theme.
|
|