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Post by Gamingdevil on Mar 22, 2017 13:01:10 GMT
So if PP does not buff underperforming models using themes then they suck at balancing their game But if they do then they are money grubbing deviants glad we cleared that up That's not exactly what I meant, I'm sorry that I apparently offended you. I never said they sucked at balancing their game, nor that they are "money grubbing deviants". I'm glad that they are trying to make the models viable, what I have issue with is that the base version of the unit is still bad and if you ever want to play them, you kind of have to go in theme. On top of that, it's the few ways our faction can get any decent recursion going. It's 2 birds with one stone, which is a good thing, but I hope you will understand it leaves a bit of a sour taste.
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Post by sideshowlucifer on Mar 22, 2017 13:03:53 GMT
I don't mind the buying models for a theme I want to play thing. What I mind is the buying models for a theme I'm settling for playing until something better comes along. I dig Tharn in theory, but I'm not buying the expensive tharn just to compete until they release a theme I actually want to play. Circle is already bad enough with three sub-factions within it that themes are just limiting it even more in ways I can't imagine will turn out favorably.
As far as Cryx, I actually own the Revenant Crew for the theme, I just don't like the theme. It's boring as hell to me.
As far as ignoring me, well I'm someone that buys a faction, not an army. If they choose to ignore that demographic, than so be it. It isn't people like me they need to worry about though, it's the players who don't want to spend more who already spent what they considered enough to only have it be no longer enough and feels that the trend will continue as new themes are released and basicly void the themes they bought in to in the mean time.
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Post by Gamingdevil on Mar 22, 2017 13:06:52 GMT
It isn't people like me they need to worry about though, it's the players who don't want to spend more who already spent what they considered enough to only have it be no longer enough and feels that the trend will continue as new themes are released and basicly void the themes they bought in to in the mean time. Well, to be fair, they (the people not like you) weren't really going to spend more money on the game anyway, whether their armies remained viable or not, so that's not really a loss to the bottom line of PP. It might shrink the community, but I don't think that will have much of an impact in the long term.
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Post by sideshowlucifer on Mar 22, 2017 13:08:12 GMT
New models I'll spend the money on, but I agree, if I already own a lot of stuff, they already have my money, about 8 factions worth..lol
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Post by sideshowlucifer on Mar 22, 2017 13:11:11 GMT
That's kinda the point though. New theme force only models would get people like me to spend more on models. I like the idea of certain models being for specific themes only and I like the balance it allows. The current method leaves me doubting balance and basically spending nothing until a theme is released I actually really like.
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unded
Junior Strategist
Posts: 760
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Post by unded on Mar 22, 2017 13:14:40 GMT
It seems I'm in the minority here.
I have absolutely no issue with Spam at all - a spammed unit / model can represent many things. It could be an abuse of a model / unit that is too good for its points, it could be a play directly to the strengths of a particular caster synergy, it could even be a case of a gamer playing a specific theme (not PP Themes, just a theme in his mind, a storyline). Nothing in these bothers me. The complaint is that spam abuses too-cheap models, but in my mind that's a complaint about badle-designed models / units, and should be addressed specifically on those points costs.
Themes, however, I'm finding myself disliking more and more. All the popular themes have one thing in common - the player gets a good 10-14 free points added to his list (I recently built a Thagrosh2 list with 20 free points in Oracles). This is a very significant advantage. What's worse is that the armies with broader tournament-level options feel the theme limitations less than the more lop-sided factions in terms of internal balance (ie Khador players barely notice the theme restrictions, while Cryx players absolutely feel the pinch). The result here is simply a widening of the gaps between the haves and have-nots. In a competitive environment, you now have another hard choice - do you play in theme with the restrictions, or out of theme and suck it up that you're playing with 10% less resources than your opponent? My prediction is that top-tier contenders will find themselves more and more gravitating towards themes for that 10% edge (not to mention very useful in-game advantages. Alreasdy our local trollblood players are claiming that the theme is essential if they ever want to use the stones).
-und_ed
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Post by sideshowlucifer on Mar 22, 2017 13:32:38 GMT
I think spam can be a problem unless you expect it and plan against it. It's when the spam has no real viable answers (see pre-nerf Una2) that it becomes just infuriating to play against. Among and his light spam isn't really a fun game, but there are so many ways to counter it, that it's basically a non-issue to beat if you plan for it. In MKI, Seraph spam was basically a no-win situation most of the time and it was absolutely annoying to play against in tourneys, especially when you play that list in 4+ matchups. It does have the negative side effect of limiting viable model choices though since you need to plan against the more common ones like jack spam, but that's just the nature of the edition I guess and should hopefully shift a little more as the edition grows.
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Post by dicebedamned on Mar 22, 2017 13:34:12 GMT
Not buying models until you see a theme you really like is fine. PP won't keel over from it. Lots of people stopped buying Skorne entirely prior to their update, PP still goes on.
I think people are upset because their faction is not in their eyes 100% usable, and they feel it should be. Those people then get more upset when themes like Storm Division come out (A theme where everything was pretty good to start with).
I would suggest seeing themes as a way to expand your model collection and branch out of your faction. Stop thinking of yourself as a Menoth player, or a Trollbloods player and start thinking of yourselves as a Creator's Wrath or Power of Dhunia player. Once you get your head round that (not implying you have to) the game really opens up. Before hand I would have been cautious of jumping in on a list for say Cryx when I am a Menoth player. it is a large commitment. but with themes, I am buying a smaller pool of models, making it more affordable.
I think this is PP's intention: Get all those people who have always fancied playing a subset of a faction but have held back because there was no way playing just that sub-set would be competitive, to buy into the theme, with the hope that players will eventually expand into the faction more. The themes are not really there for the 'I play faction X' players, they are there as a tempting marketing tool.
Some themes are better than others, yes. Some themes give more free points than others. Some themes are not such a hardship to be limited by due to the models included in the theme. At the end of the day PP's job is to sell models, and themes certainly encourage that.
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Post by sideshowlucifer on Mar 22, 2017 13:47:17 GMT
If PP gave me a Wold theme that wasn't complete garbage, I'd have been both feet in. Sadly, that ship has sailed and likely never to be revisited. I think the Menoth themes are ok thematically, but everyone is holding out for the exemplar theme. I'm holding out for a theme that makes McThralls a decent swarm unit again in Cryx and for maybe a Satyr or Warpwolf theme in Circle (I actually like the WoO Theme).Likewise, I like the themes for the Grymkin currently being tested since they are infantry and beast themes for a small faction.
The themes can be good, I'm not saying they can't. It's when you compare the Wold Theme to say the Storm Division theme that the bitterness happens. How did the Wold Theme come out so terrible? Why allow a support model into that theme that can't support constructs? It feels phoned in. The main irritation is that since it is already theme, we are likely not not see any new Wold Theme revision or new theme for them at all until the next edition, so my favorite sub-faction of a faction I play is basically playing points down for the foreseeable future.
A very simple fix would have been to give Stoneshapers a damage buff in theme for Wolds.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Mar 22, 2017 13:51:59 GMT
On the topic of my original post, someone posted an interview with Will Schick on Facebook recently, and the topic of theme forces came up. He Specifically mentioned the Trencher Theme for Cygnar, and how it would get a bunch of releases in one go (Trencher Longgunners and Trencher Mechanics were mentioned) and this would be the new norm for release, i.e a bunch of models all related to a particular theme. He also said that while on paper you may decide Gobber mechanics and better value than Trencher ones, they would not be competing directly as you could not take Gobber Mechanics in the Trencher theme, so overlap would not matter so much
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Post by Cryptix on Mar 22, 2017 16:28:24 GMT
On the topic of my original post, someone posted an interview with Will Schick on Facebook recently, and the topic of theme forces came up. He Specifically mentioned the Trencher Theme for Cygnar, and how it would get a bunch of releases in one go (Trencher Longgunners and Trencher Mechanics were mentioned) and this would be the new norm for release, i.e a bunch of models all related to a particular theme. He also said that while on paper you may decide Gobber mechanics and better value than Trencher ones, they would not be competing directly as you could not take Gobber Mechanics in the Trencher theme, so overlap would not matter so much But then you have a problem of being able to take dozens of near identical units, and spam regardless of FA.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Mar 22, 2017 16:45:11 GMT
On the topic of my original post, someone posted an interview with Will Schick on Facebook recently, and the topic of theme forces came up. He Specifically mentioned the Trencher Theme for Cygnar, and how it would get a bunch of releases in one go (Trencher Longgunners and Trencher Mechanics were mentioned) and this would be the new norm for release, i.e a bunch of models all related to a particular theme. He also said that while on paper you may decide Gobber mechanics and better value than Trencher ones, they would not be competing directly as you could not take Gobber Mechanics in the Trencher theme, so overlap would not matter so much But then you have a problem of being able to take dozens of near identical units, and spam regardless of FA. I guess you could spam units of mechanics, might not be the best strategy though
on a serious note though, that would only be a problem if the models were too good, spam does not always mean busted
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Post by phantasmagorium on Mar 22, 2017 17:07:14 GMT
On the topic of my original post, someone posted an interview with Will Schick on Facebook recently, and the topic of theme forces came up. He Specifically mentioned the Trencher Theme for Cygnar, and how it would get a bunch of releases in one go (Trencher Longgunners and Trencher Mechanics were mentioned) and this would be the new norm for release, i.e a bunch of models all related to a particular theme. He also said that while on paper you may decide Gobber mechanics and better value than Trencher ones, they would not be competing directly as you could not take Gobber Mechanics in the Trencher theme, so overlap would not matter so much But then you have a problem of being able to take dozens of near identical units, and spam regardless of FA. Having all of your models share a single aesthetic is not a bad thing.
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Post by garou on Mar 22, 2017 17:19:40 GMT
Welp, ya got me there. Hope we can get themes into CID. Tharn theme won Australian Iron Gauntlet at their largest tournament, Cancon. Australia has one of the strongest metas in the world, so this isn't an isolated result Sounds exactly like an isolated result
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Post by garou on Mar 22, 2017 17:30:44 GMT
Ofc you can find an exception or two, someone is bound to have luck or just simply outplay his opponents if you give it enough time. Doesn't change the fact that circle theme forces are behind compared to other factions. Don't see how you can argue anything else. 95% of circle players play out of theme. What does it look like in your faction, 95% in theme? Talking one list in tournament pairing.
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