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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Mar 20, 2017 15:53:23 GMT
So it has come up in several conversations I have had at my LGS and on Facebook that there is no reason not to play in theme most of the time, the main reason being getting 13 - 17 free points, along with some other benefits.
I would say that this is intentional and PP wants people to play in theme most of the time. The reason for this is faction bloat, PP needs to release new models to keep their business afloat, however the more models that are in a faction the harder it becomes to balance internally, both in terms of keeping powerful synergies in check, and making sure everything has a relevant role and a chance of seeing table time, this is made harder by the addition of mercenary models.
I think therefore the plan is to break factions down into various 'sub-factions' in the form of Theme lists, by doing this it makes it easier to balance as you are dealing with fewer models and fewer interactions, it also allows functionality overlap in various models/units, even though one is maybe better, they are not in the same theme so are not competing for space.
Now of course you can play out of theme still, but any crazy wombo-combo synergies you can create out of theme are offset by the fact you are playing 13 - 17 points down, and that in itself is used to balance the game.
Am I on the money? do I need a larger foil hat? let me know
disclaimer: I do not have a problem with the strategy above, in fact I think it is needed for the longevity of the game
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Nyxu
Overseer
NaCl Elemental
Posts: 119
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Post by Nyxu on Mar 20, 2017 16:03:22 GMT
How do you reconcile this theory with the themes that contain the same wombo combo that would be used outside of the theme ? E.g. Stormlances
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Post by Swampmist on Mar 20, 2017 16:06:00 GMT
Actually, lances lose their wombo-combo in that they lose access to cloud screens (minor, but it can matter) and much more importantly pathfinder. Lances happen to be incredibly good without those things, but they do lose parts of the package.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Mar 20, 2017 16:11:27 GMT
How do you reconcile this theory with the themes that contain the same wombo combo that would be used outside of the theme ? E.g. Stormlances Some themes are very powerful it is true, however that may be PP missing the mark slightly in terms of getting the power level right, I feel however the theory is sound when you consider that all theme forces allow roughly the same number of free points.
edit, on a related note I would say that losing access to Ragman is a huge blow for the Storm Lance theme, by losing effectively +2 to the mount attack, assault shot and charge attack, that is 6 less damage per Storm Lance charge.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Mar 20, 2017 16:45:25 GMT
That was actually their stated goal.
Like they plan on releasing Trencher mechanics. Who honestly cares about them in the slightest. But if you can get them in a theme, for a bunch of free points and with some boosted ability....
Well suddenly that might be worth a purchase.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Mar 20, 2017 16:47:34 GMT
That was actually their stated goal. Like they plan on releasing Trencher mechanics. Who honestly cares about them in the slightest. But if you can get them in a theme, for a bunch of free points and with some boosted ability.... Well suddenly that might be worth a purchase. Ah I see, I must have missed it, when did they announce that?
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Post by copperflame on Mar 20, 2017 17:25:30 GMT
Wow - I didn't consider this perspective.
My first inclination of MKIII themes were not positive. When looking at the previous renditions of theme forces, 'free points' was an overwhelming source of 'broken/op'. With this version, we see not just 2-4 free points, but +12 free points! Even with x2 the point spread change... that is a lot more than what we have previously seen. I have concerns about balance, not to mention the uninspiring nature of what I had seen so far.
But if I look at this from the angle that 'everything in theme' helps define possible combos that would be 'breaking' or a way to make weak models work above their weight class while still being able to sell new stuff ... well, that makes sense. I know as a LoE player, not having access to the newer stuff (Hellmouth, Warlord, etc.) forces me to make a choice. Granted - I'm going to go theme because 2 free forsaken + 1 free succubus has more value than those models in most of my lists (currently).
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Post by jisidro on Mar 20, 2017 17:27:52 GMT
The biggest problme with your theory is the fact that not all themes and faction are created equal. Some factions are playing 10+ points down against others.
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Post by phantasmagorium on Mar 20, 2017 17:37:36 GMT
The biggest problme with your theory is the fact that not all themes and faction are created equal. Some factions are playing 10+ points down against others. This is only a problem until the theme forces are all released.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Mar 20, 2017 17:50:41 GMT
If themes were just to bring up the "bad", I'd be fine. Legion Nephilim theme - if you're going to gimp yourself out of heavies you deserve a bonus to make it more viable. But in the same release; Oracles of Annihilation - bring warbeasts, play a 95 point game. This should not be. I'm all for thematic and tactical bonuses - Ravens of War. but not just blanket power additions.
I can understand they "want" the game to be played in theme. But with every theme just being some flavor of bring x get y free. Just set the standard theme to 100 points and delete that theme bonus while adding back the tier requirements. Want to get that "No AD for the opponent" part of the theme? Bring X number of Strider models. Want Oracles' free upkeep spells before the games starts Bring x number of models with Magic. That in turn leads to non-theme "playing 25 points down" but other dude had to take 4 nephilim soldiers, 2 units of spawning vessel and half a dozen shredders under Abby1. You can take any model you want. There is balance in the opening or restriction of choices.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Mar 20, 2017 18:20:09 GMT
Ah I see, I must have missed it, when did they announce that? It was in a podcast about them. Don't remember which but I nearly paraphrased what they said.
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Post by Aegis on Mar 20, 2017 18:50:14 GMT
I see 2 problems if that is the goal:
1) Some models will become unplayble. As an example, all mercs outside mercs armies. Everyone else who bought them will have the purchase almost invalidated, since you practically won't be able to field them anymore since they would cost you too much (their cost + 10-17 free points). Same with character jacks tied to weak casters. Who ever is going to play Gallant if it costs you more than 30 points with everyone but Constance Blaize?
2) Lists risk to become too standardized. We already have clear trends of lists without themes, but if you make mandatory themes the lists for a caster will become even less variegated due to the theme restrictions/bonuses, making pretty much everyone run the same lists with just 1-2 models difference.
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wishing
Junior Strategist
Posts: 353
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Post by wishing on Mar 20, 2017 19:15:52 GMT
"Same with character jacks tied to weak casters. Who ever is going to play Gallant if it costs you more than 30 points with everyone but Constance Blaize?"
Yeah, but then the problem is Blaize being unplayable in the first place right? If she was playable, then Gallant would be too. And it is not theme lists that make Blaize weak.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Mar 20, 2017 19:51:14 GMT
I made a thread or 2 about this direction and was told that I was crazy and theme forces are bad, so good to see more people take up the tin foil crown.
So the thing that I am finding is that all themes all the time is an interesting way to go but it does have some downsides as people here have said, but it also has upsides. It is a lot easier to balance certain models against each other (exemplars and errants) than balancing models with similar roles but very different approaches (errands and idrians).
It does mean that if a character jack isn't good with its parent caster it is very unlikely to be taken. Brickhouse has some interesting play with people such as Kraye, Darius and Nemo 2, but it will never be worth breaking theme for the dubious perk of paying points for brickhouse. For characters to be taken they either need to be:
Made better with their respective casters (brickhouse is just made to be more powerful and synergistic with Maddox's gameplan).
Allowed to be taken in themes (heavy metal includes Brickhouse)
Or just be made generally stronger to allow reasons to not be played in theme (brickhouse becomes a better centurion, like thorn is a better lancer).
The same applies for Mercenary options, except for caster synergies. They either need to be allowed in themes (which some are, granted), or provide a compelling reason to play out of theme (which some do like rhupert. But most dont).
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Post by heckler on Mar 20, 2017 19:57:58 GMT
If this is the case, then I wholeheartedly do not like the direction. I'm already peeved that free points are the reward for taking theme lists. The fact that nearly all of the ones being fielded yield 10-20 points free is a bit ridiculous.
Playing 20 points down is rough. Especially against some themes that pretty much are just a collection of good things. Sure, perhaps playing 20 points down against nephilim isn't so bad; playing down against a nemo3 gunline is not an easy task.
I would have far preferred to have the theme force give the other benefits like extra deployment, ambush, give reposition and the like. Even having the theme fix problems with units like revenant recursion, but giving free quality models for taking other quality models seems against the design space idea.
Or have the theme force have a core that needs to be taken to unlock the free models; i.e. start with 2 specific jacks, these units and unlock these free solos in return.
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