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Post by CodFather on Mar 21, 2017 21:06:59 GMT
Protectorate has little incentive to use themes at the moment. Most of our best choices dont work in a theme. And only one of our themes is any good. The other is currently subpar. And the jack theme gives up all of our infantry for just jacks and support. The jack theme can be competitive, but there are many reasons not to use it. If theme quality continues to be all over the place, pp will have failed at trying to make themes the way to play and created massive balance issues at the same time. You have little incentive to use themes except for your very good one? That sounds like exactly what he said. Creators Wrath is very permissive and very powerful. Ya I gotta agree, Creators wrath is absolutely bonkers with Amon and really good with Sevvy2. |
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Post by CodFather on Mar 21, 2017 21:09:02 GMT
It feels like only circle, ret and skorne have themes that aren't that good. Tho I have seen some good vyros2 and rahn lists with the ret theme that look strong, so maybe its only circle and Skorne. It does seem like they missed the boat with circles, but skorne might get a good theme when they get their book.
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Post by Cryptix on Mar 21, 2017 21:15:31 GMT
I've done well with the Wild Hunt, though that's mostly because of free war wolves...
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Lanz
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685 
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Post by Lanz on Mar 21, 2017 21:54:48 GMT
It feels like only circle, ret and skorne have themes that aren't that good. Tho I have seen some good vyros2 and rahn lists with the ret theme that look strong, so maybe its only circle and Skorne. It does seem like they missed the boat with circles, but skorne might get a good theme when they get their book. Ret's theme is pretty awsome i think. Shield guard everywhere in a gunline-heavy meta? Absolutely. Circle feels closer to where theme lists should be. Distinct and thematic but not outwardly powerful. |
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Post by sideshowlucifer on Mar 22, 2017 0:01:20 GMT
The huge problem with playing the current competitive theme is that if you don't have the models or it doesn't fit your play style, you basically play out of theme and play points down. While if you do go buy the models, the next theme you get could be one you actually want to play and might end up using none of the models you just brought for a theme you settled for.
There is no way I'm playing the Circle or Menoth Themes. I already own the Cygnar one with all the storm stuff so I wouldn't have to buy anything since I have been playing the storm stuff since it was introduced.
Themes should have been released in a big group of a minimum of 4 or 5 per faction all at once. Balance of power and balance in general will be all over the place for awhile to come.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Mar 22, 2017 6:17:26 GMT
The huge problem with playing the current competitive theme is that if you don't have the models or it doesn't fit your play style, you basically play out of theme and play points down. While if you do go buy the models, the next theme you get could be one you actually want to play and might end up using none of the models you just brought for a theme you settled for. There is no way I'm playing the Circle or Menoth Themes. I already own the Cygnar one with all the storm stuff so I wouldn't have to buy anything since I have been playing the storm stuff since it was introduced. Themes should have been released in a big group of a minimum of 4 or 5 per faction all at once. Balance of power and balance in general will be all over the place for awhile to come. Your argument is... "some people may have to buys models?" Really? If that is your problem then pp will have to ignore you as you are providing no tangible benefit to their business. |
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Post by Gamingdevil on Mar 22, 2017 8:20:43 GMT
The huge problem with playing the current competitive theme is that if you don't have the models or it doesn't fit your play style, you basically play out of theme and play points down. While if you do go buy the models, the next theme you get could be one you actually want to play and might end up using none of the models you just brought for a theme you settled for. There is no way I'm playing the Circle or Menoth Themes. I already own the Cygnar one with all the storm stuff so I wouldn't have to buy anything since I have been playing the storm stuff since it was introduced. Themes should have been released in a big group of a minimum of 4 or 5 per faction all at once. Balance of power and balance in general will be all over the place for awhile to come. Your argument is... "some people may have to buys models?" Really? If that is your problem then pp will have to ignore you as you are providing no tangible benefit to their business. While I don't disagree with you in that this is needed for PP's business and themes are a way to make internal balance more manageable for them, the first, and so far only, theme for Cryx is Revenants. Those models nearly nobody played because they're actually not that good and kind of expensive for what they do, now the theme not only makes them playable, but it's one of the very few ways Cryx has to play the game like they used, and mostly want, to: hordes of recurring infantry. That really sounds like "please buy me and do it now" to me. I don't mind that they need to do this to make money, but in this case it's really just to finally get rid of the massive stock of those models that they probably have, contrary to Storm Division which a lot of people already own. |
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Mar 22, 2017 10:34:37 GMT
That's kind of a pessimistic view. Themes have been hit or miss. But in the factions with multiple themes (more than 1) so far, there's been at least 1 competitive theme released. Circle has 3 themes and they all fail to deliver. Looks like you disagree, please tell me what i missed so i can go build that list right now. Welp, ya got me there. Hope we can get themes into CID. |
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Mar 22, 2017 10:38:19 GMT
Circle has 3 themes and they all fail to deliver. Looks like you disagree, please tell me what i missed so i can go build that list right now. Welp, ya got me there. Hope we can get themes into CID. Tharn theme won Australian Iron Gauntlet at their largest tournament, Cancon. Australia has one of the strongest metas in the world, so this isn't an isolated result |
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Mar 22, 2017 10:40:54 GMT
Your argument is... "some people may have to buys models?" Really? If that is your problem then pp will have to ignore you as you are providing no tangible benefit to their business. While I don't disagree with you in that this is needed for PP's business and themes are a way to make internal balance more manageable for them, the first, and so far only, theme for Cryx is Revenants. Those models nearly nobody played because they're actually not that good and kind of expensive for what they do, now the theme not only makes them playable, but it's one of the very few ways Cryx has to play the game like they used, and mostly want, to: hordes of recurring infantry. That really sounds like "please buy me and do it now" to me. I don't mind that they need to do this to make money, but in this case it's really just to finally get rid of the massive stock of those models that they probably have, contrary to Storm Division which a lot of people already own. Really? I'm having to put my Stormblades and buy gobber mechaniks... Also use a lancer, and paint Maddox. I mean at what point does "giving a model a place on the table" go from good business sense and good PR to some kind of conspiracy? Yes, pp wants you to buy models. Yes they want to make reasons to put models on the table, yes they want to mainly do this through future releases. This is good for everyone, pp gets to survive and players get new stuff that helps old stuff too. |
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Post by jisidro on Mar 22, 2017 11:45:55 GMT
That's kind of a pessimistic view. Themes have been hit or miss. But in the factions with multiple themes (more than 1) so far, there's been at least 1 competitive theme released. Circle has 3 themes and they all fail to deliver. Looks like you disagree, please tell me what i missed so i can go build that list right now.
They fail to deliver when compared to other themes out there. They have the concept that there is a blackclad theme in circle which makes no sense, Blackclads ARE Circle Orboros. But apart from the lack of druids everywhere and Wilder on the Construct theme only the limitations make sense and the lists are cool. Points are an issue... as they are for a lot of factions.
They don't deliver the Storm division super efficiency coupled with all the solos you want (Squire, Juniors, Arlan) but I personally think the offenders are the super efficient not the limiting ones. If PP feels diferently then a lot of themes need a power-up.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Mar 22, 2017 12:04:32 GMT
That's kind of a pessimistic view. Themes have been hit or miss. But in the factions with multiple themes (more than 1) so far, there's been at least 1 competitive theme released. Circle has 3 themes and they all fail to deliver. Looks like you disagree, please tell me what i missed so i can go build that list right now. Lets not get passive aggressive. You may think they all fall flat but no one has taken every possible combination of every theme to a tournament. Gold may yet be found. Just because it's not obvious does not mean it's all doom and gloom. Then again none of them are out right terrible. You're not restricted to argus spam like Children of the Dragon, and even that theme is showing some possibilities. Even if you don't want to work out the puzzle yourself, someone else will and they are bound to find positive combinations. I mean come on, Ghost Fleet had the WORST reception and it's won tournaments. It blew people's minds. On paper it didn't amount to crap but on the table it made a significant difference. |
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Post by Aegis on Mar 22, 2017 12:08:18 GMT
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Post by Gamingdevil on Mar 22, 2017 12:37:13 GMT
While I don't disagree with you in that this is needed for PP's business and themes are a way to make internal balance more manageable for them, the first, and so far only, theme for Cryx is Revenants. Those models nearly nobody played because they're actually not that good and kind of expensive for what they do, now the theme not only makes them playable, but it's one of the very few ways Cryx has to play the game like they used, and mostly want, to: hordes of recurring infantry. That really sounds like "please buy me and do it now" to me. I don't mind that they need to do this to make money, but in this case it's really just to finally get rid of the massive stock of those models that they probably have, contrary to Storm Division which a lot of people already own. Really? I'm having to put my Stormblades and buy gobber mechaniks... Also use a lancer, and paint Maddox. I mean at what point does "giving a model a place on the table" go from good business sense and good PR to some kind of conspiracy? Yes, pp wants you to buy models. Yes they want to make reasons to put models on the table, yes they want to mainly do this through future releases. This is good for everyone, pp gets to survive and players get new stuff that helps old stuff too. You have a point, but it's to a different scale. 90% (rough estimate I just invented on the spot) of the people playing MK2 that want to play the theme list will be buying 3 units of Revenant Crew with Rifles + Rengrave + 0-2 Cannons. Many people will also need to buy 1-2 Pistol Wraiths. Maybe a Wraith Engine if you get really crazy. The theme force is really good, but it's also extremely restrictive as well as basically the only way to play Revenants, because they actually need that "discount" and the +1 to the D3, as well as the way to play that many MK2 Cryx players still want. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, they are after all giving us what we need/want, but doing it with a bunch of models that almost nobody owns and thus has to buy 60+ points of feels really cheap. |
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Mar 22, 2017 12:46:20 GMT
So if PP does not buff underperforming models using themes then they suck at balancing their game
But if they do then they are money grubbing deviants
glad we cleared that up
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