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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Mar 21, 2017 13:52:55 GMT
I do wish that PP had released a good number of themes (2-3/faction) on the release of MKIII. Instead, we have to wait well over a year to get to that point. If this is how the edition is supposed to be balanced, then it should have been released that way. So, we've had MK3.0, MK3.1, MK3.2, etc. The game is constantly changing, moving towards some sort of finished product, but in the meantime no one knows where we're going. SR17 sounds like it will be another big shift in gameplay, and the more themes released the more different everything will look.
Believe me, I don't like that the game is changing so drastically ~10 months in. There should've been some serious disclaimer announcements going on, saying that MKIII would basically be released in Beta for like 1-2 years where new elements would be released often. Either that, or they should have done 5 years of playtesting and released a finished product.
But the issue at hand isn't the themes or how they're built. The issue is that we had a version of MKIII WMH that will be changing into MKIV. MKIII was basically MKII, but with different model rules, and slightly altered core rules. MKIV will be MKIII, but centered around themes, making non-theme lists weaker. We just don't have a steady game to play. If we could just jump to MKX, where everything that's supposed to come out has come out, then I think WMH would be better off.
Who's to say that PP won't give each faction a "mixed forces" theme that allows everything available to the faction, and grants some tiny bonus? Like +2WJP? PP could do that to try and counterbalance. We just don't know.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Mar 21, 2017 14:06:47 GMT
Stormsmith DropoutI agree completely that this current edition of Warmahordes has not reached it's intended destination yet, and I agree it will probably be about another year until the pieces finally come together. With regards to the comments of not having a steady game, I can see how it would be frustrating, however I find it exciting as well, If I compare what I play now to what I did at the start of Mk3, the difference is pretty drastic, I think the best thing to do is try and enjoy the roller-coaster and hope PP will pull into the right station at the end of it.
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Mar 21, 2017 14:34:26 GMT
Stormsmith Dropout I agree completely that this current edition of Warmahordes has not reached it's intended destination yet, and I agree it will probably be about another year until the pieces finally come together. With regards to the comments of not having a steady game, I can see how it would be frustrating, however I find it exciting as well, If I compare what I play now to what I did at the start of Mk3, the difference is pretty drastic, I think the best thing to do is try and enjoy the roller-coaster and hope PP will pull into the right station at the end of it. Oh, I enjoy the constant changes to list building strategy. That's fun. The frustration comes from purchase paralysis, and purchase invalidation. While I technically can include different mercs in my army, it's pretty much not a real option anymore. I have a pretty big collection of mercs who won't see any use because they are simply too expensive to include. My devil dogs+Maddox list won't go any further because Stormblades are better and cheaper in theme. My gastonne+Talon with Haley2 trickery won't be happening because they are not worth it now. I really like the changes, but I don't enjoy my purchases becoming so much weaker a few months after I purchase them. I dislike that so much that I won't be buying much in the near future because I just don't feel like taking the risk. Building with models I already have is great, the changes make it all pretty fun. But I'm gonna have to do a waiting period of 6 months after a release to actually buy something.
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Nyxu
Overseer
NaCl Elemental
Posts: 119
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Post by Nyxu on Mar 21, 2017 15:01:58 GMT
On the topic specifically of character jacks:
Malice and Deathjack need to be specifically added into themes or they need to be bonkers to make up for it.
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Post by DanX on Mar 21, 2017 15:07:09 GMT
I hope that one of the design goal for MK3 was to create a long period where PP could just do their thing of releasing new cool models that evolve the meta, and keep most of us interested in whats happening, white keeping the game closely balanced and our stuff relevant.
Phase one: Get Mk3 out. Phase two: Get first batch of Theme Forces out Phase three: Start a release schedule of Theme Forces that goes on for several years. Phase four: Start again/do something different.
We are in Phase two. I hope Phase 3 is nice and long.
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Mar 21, 2017 15:16:26 GMT
I'd rather they just get the themes out, then do big groups of old models in CID. Fix the older models that still don't have a place after the themes. Heck, put some themes in CID. By the look of the output I see over there, it could be handled in big handfuls of models and themes. If they started doing that, I'd be super happy. There's a limit to how many themes are going to exist in each faction. The basic ones (jack/beast heavy, storm division, winter guard, exemplars, etc) should be finished quickly.
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Post by Cryptix on Mar 21, 2017 15:21:38 GMT
I still think that the Deathjack should get a theme devoted entirely to himself, where he's a 6 focus caster without powerup and for every 20 points of jacks he gets a free siren or necrotech outside FA.
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Post by jisidro on Mar 21, 2017 16:02:56 GMT
The biggest problme with your theory is the fact that not all themes and faction are created equal. Some factions are playing 10+ points down against others. This is only a problem until the theme forces are all released.
I think there is a 0% chance, rounded up, that every faction will have a decente theme much less 2 or more. End result may be more variety of playable choices but it'll be alongside 10+ point difference on the table for no discernable reason.
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Mar 21, 2017 16:09:42 GMT
That's kind of a pessimistic view. Themes have been hit or miss. But in the factions with multiple themes (more than 1) so far, there's been at least 1 competitive theme released.
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Post by jisidro on Mar 21, 2017 16:11:23 GMT
Then, the argument isn't against the principle of free points for theme restrictions. Maybe people 'feel' like an interesting extra rule isn't the same, but it is. If the number of points is the issue, then I suggest we wait to see more of the themes. We haven't even seen half of them. Sure, heavy metal allows for ~17points of free stuff. But that's to make up for one of the weaknesses of an all jacks list. 4 of the 5 solos allowed are focus batteries with a couple of other abilities like a good upkeep or repair.
Well see if all the Warjack/Beast lists give you 17+ points and 7 more focus (or fury management) while giving you all the support you want. The weakness you speak of would be gone if you took Sword Knights. The unit is in the theme.
Someone said free points and abilities are the same. Abilites may be very important on one match-up and a perk on others but points are extra attacks, extra models AND extra abilities always. They most certainly are not.
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Post by heckler on Mar 21, 2017 17:11:18 GMT
This concept is not list chicken-y though. Playing 15+ points down is a very big hamstring. If the theme gave bonuses to models/units, then that viability would be good. Extra points in the army is the absolute best possible bonus if it's on that scale (rather than being a free solo or something a little less amazing than many points).
Realistically, many themes award more free points equivalent in this edition than older theme forces did in mk2, which was previously declared as a negative play experience. I regularly take 16-20 free points of shield guard models in the CoC theme.
The only idea about all of it that leaves me with a not bad feeling is that you really won't see all of the character jacks together in the same list anymore, but that hasn't really been a problem of mk3 anyway.
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Post by greytemplar on Mar 21, 2017 17:18:07 GMT
My tin hat is also somewhat lodged onunihead for now. If you want to be competitive right now, it's very unlikely you would play out of theme unless you don't have access to yours yet. It just seems absolutely mad to not play with the 16-odd extra points when everybody else surely will. Very seldom will the flexibility of selecting any model overcome the points deficit, and that just means that we will start seeing a lot less character heavies and infantry variety. Perhaps its still too early to tell and we all need to relax a bit, but with my legion, my favourite models of swordsmen and Proteus seem to be an endangered species! Protectorate has little incentive to use themes at the moment. Most of our best choices dont work in a theme. And only one of our themes is any good. The other is currently subpar. And the jack theme gives up all of our infantry for just jacks and support. The jack theme can be competitive, but there are many reasons not to use it. If theme quality continues to be all over the place, pp will have failed at trying to make themes the way to play and created massive balance issues at the same time.
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Post by argent on Mar 21, 2017 18:05:05 GMT
One of the reasons I started playing Warmachine and never got into Warhammer was that I didn't appreciate Composition rules and being told what to play. Themes introduce in-faction model limitations and largely eliminate mercenary gap coverage.
Based on the idea that themes aren't being introduced as ways to further enhance game enjoyment with reasonable tradeoffs but are, rather, being introduced to provide "designspace" with penalizations for not using them, I feel they may just be a softer form of the Comp rules from the other company. Granted, you can still play whatever you want within faction rules; you'll just be doing it from a competitive disadvantage, and that is not the game I signed on for.
I also believe they encourage spam, but that is another concern.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Mar 21, 2017 19:38:02 GMT
My tin hat is also somewhat lodged onunihead for now. If you want to be competitive right now, it's very unlikely you would play out of theme unless you don't have access to yours yet. It just seems absolutely mad to not play with the 16-odd extra points when everybody else surely will. Very seldom will the flexibility of selecting any model overcome the points deficit, and that just means that we will start seeing a lot less character heavies and infantry variety. Perhaps its still too early to tell and we all need to relax a bit, but with my legion, my favourite models of swordsmen and Proteus seem to be an endangered species! Protectorate has little incentive to use themes at the moment. Most of our best choices dont work in a theme. And only one of our themes is any good. The other is currently subpar. And the jack theme gives up all of our infantry for just jacks and support. The jack theme can be competitive, but there are many reasons not to use it. If theme quality continues to be all over the place, pp will have failed at trying to make themes the way to play and created massive balance issues at the same time. You have little incentive to use themes except for your very good one? That sounds like exactly what he said. Creators Wrath is very permissive and very powerful.
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Post by garou on Mar 21, 2017 21:06:34 GMT
That's kind of a pessimistic view. Themes have been hit or miss. But in the factions with multiple themes (more than 1) so far, there's been at least 1 competitive theme released. Circle has 3 themes and they all fail to deliver. Looks like you disagree, please tell me what i missed so i can go build that list right now.
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