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Post by garou on Apr 8, 2017 18:50:34 GMT
Gotcha no moving my caster outside my deployment zone. I'm mainly joking. Its just that he's Caine 3...he's really bad. If you need to worry about assassination from your deployment zone, we have plenty of Rahns and Lylith 3's on offer, though. I don't agree, looks and feels solid. He will be played and for good reasons. Someone said he is dead after using mage sight. Why? He is 16 away from where he placed it if he wants to, sounds like a long way to me.
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Post by pangurban on Apr 8, 2017 20:10:54 GMT
I'm mainly joking. Its just that he's Caine 3...he's really bad. If you need to worry about assassination from your deployment zone, we have plenty of Rahns and Lylith 3's on offer, though. I don't agree, looks and feels solid. He will be played and for good reasons. Someone said he is dead after using mage sight. Why? He is 16 away from where he placed it if he wants to, sounds like a long way to me. Cygnar-wise, Caine3 is in a faction that in the current meta, when it comes to high-level competition, is defined by bonkers casters, strong themes and/or Storm Lances. And he's not bonkers himself and doesn't have any real affinity with a good theme or with Lances. Depending on your outlook, that might mean he's really bad. Of course, he doesn't have any affinity with Mercs so it's probably better to say he's really bad as a merc and not as bad as that in Cygnar. ;-) I think he's ok myself, in terms of rules. He does suffer in terms of making use of the best Cygnar has to offer, and that makes a significant difference.
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Tucker
Junior Strategist
Posts: 103
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Post by Tucker on Apr 9, 2017 3:27:57 GMT
Caine3 isn't terrible in Mercenaries. A Galleon and Aiyana are very good for him, and there are some decent options for protecting him like Orin Midwinter that you can't get in Cygnar. After playing a dozen games with him I would say he's an average caster who needs five more warjack points.
His best feature is that he always has a chance at assassination, especially if he keeps his feat in his back pocket. I played a game where, for my Hail Mary, Caine3 charged an enemy warjack with the Hellslingers, feated, used Flicker to get out of combat, had the Hellslingers shoot the warjack to build up the feat, and then Caine3 gunned down the enemy warcaster who had been 20" away at the start of the turn. I wouldn't want to rely on that but it's decently reliable for a desperation play (5 POW 14 RAT 11 shots with reload factored in).
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Apr 9, 2017 5:10:37 GMT
I'm mainly joking. Its just that he's Caine 3...he's really bad. If you need to worry about assassination from your deployment zone, we have plenty of Rahns and Lylith 3's on offer, though. I don't agree, looks and feels solid. He will be played and for good reasons. Someone said he is dead after using mage sight. Why? He is 16 away from where he placed it if he wants to, sounds like a long way to me. Not long enough for 17/13 with not many boxes. That also includes him giving no focus out and still only camping 1. Best caster evar. He's ok. He's close to being good but doesn't have enough meshing pieces to make him good. WJP too low, focus load too high. etc etc.
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Post by Gamingdevil on Apr 10, 2017 7:08:11 GMT
His best feature is that he always has a chance at assassination, especially if he keeps his feat in his back pocket. I played a game where, for my Hail Mary, Caine3 charged an enemy warjack with the Hellslingers, feated, used Flicker to get out of combat, had the Hellslingers shoot the warjack to build up the feat, and then Caine3 gunned down the enemy warcaster who had been 20" away at the start of the turn. I wouldn't want to rely on that but it's decently reliable for a desperation play (5 POW 14 RAT 11 shots with reload factored in). I don't think it works that way. A model with the Gunfighter advantage can make charges. If it makes a charge, the model can make its initial attacks with its ranged weapons, but these attacks can target only models in its melee range. The charging gunfighter’s first melee or ranged attack after ending its charge movement must target the model it charged. If the charging gunfighter did not fail its charge and cannot make its first melee or ranged attack against the charge target, the charging gunfighter can make its first attack against any eligible target. So, on a charge, only models in melee range are eligible targets, so even after getting out of combat, or your target getting killed, you can't shoot someone at range. At least, that's how I read it.
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unded
Junior Strategist
Posts: 760
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Post by unded on Apr 10, 2017 7:45:42 GMT
The gmca means its pretty easy for any Cygnar caster to pick a heavy and delete it per turn through stealth
-und_ed
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zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
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Post by zich on Apr 10, 2017 7:52:43 GMT
Taking him however means not playing Heavy Metal or Storm Division, so that's something.
What I meant to say about Caine3: He's not automatically dead when casting Mage Sight. It's just that Mage Sight and Flicker take up almost his entire stack and leave him at 14-16" (16 if you don't actually shoot at it, 14 if you do) of the thing he Mage Sighted. It's not something he wants to do.
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Post by cygnarstronk on Apr 10, 2017 9:41:04 GMT
Caine 3 is a messy model IMHO. Isn't working good with mercs, and isn't good on cygnar too.
I mean, come on 20WJP? The two B13 members are 5 points each? That is just weird. 6 focus+sort of synergy+upkeeps and calamity = forever focus strapped. Had he a good defensive spell/teleport he would have been ok, yeah he would almost always be at 0 camp but still, he could be pretty safe away from the frontline. Sadly a 2 inches flicker is just... bad.
Oh, removing the B13 dudes that are a main component of his feat chain is incredibly easy, any simple blast will get the job done. He doesn't work good with any them force.
I am salty, i have to admit it. Well done PP.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Apr 10, 2017 11:59:19 GMT
I think once the Trencher Theme comes out Caine 3 will come into his own, free points to make up for 20wj points, clouds to protect him and his buddies and trenchers to reload the Grenadiers, might not be the worst thing ever
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Apr 10, 2017 12:25:24 GMT
I think once the Trencher Theme comes out Caine 3 will come into his own, free points to make up for 20wj points, clouds to protect him and his buddies and trenchers to reload the Grenadiers, might not be the worst thing ever Im still not enamoured with the amount of Pow 12/13 spam that people seem to think is good with Caine 3. Focus is the primary issue and if he brings Juniors to solve for focus, they aren't in his Battlegroup. It will get even worse when we realise that Arlan probably won't be in Gravediggers, and probably neither the Junior or the Squire. Not sure how Gravediggers will shake out, but just thematically I think its going to cause as many problems as it solves unless it includes some clear answers itself.
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Tucker
Junior Strategist
Posts: 103
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Post by Tucker on Apr 10, 2017 13:45:10 GMT
His best feature is that he always has a chance at assassination, especially if he keeps his feat in his back pocket. I played a game where, for my Hail Mary, Caine3 charged an enemy warjack with the Hellslingers, feated, used Flicker to get out of combat, had the Hellslingers shoot the warjack to build up the feat, and then Caine3 gunned down the enemy warcaster who had been 20" away at the start of the turn. I wouldn't want to rely on that but it's decently reliable for a desperation play (5 POW 14 RAT 11 shots with reload factored in). I don't think it works that way. A model with the Gunfighter advantage can make charges. If it makes a charge, the model can make its initial attacks with its ranged weapons, but these attacks can target only models in its melee range. The charging gunfighter’s first melee or ranged attack after ending its charge movement must target the model it charged. If the charging gunfighter did not fail its charge and cannot make its first melee or ranged attack against the charge target, the charging gunfighter can make its first attack against any eligible target. So, on a charge, only models in melee range are eligible targets, so even after getting out of combat, or your target getting killed, you can shoot someone at range. At least, that's how I read it. I see what you're saying but I don't think it's absolutely clear. It depends on what is meant by those last two words: 'eligible target.' I interpret it as 'any target the model can shoot' but it could mean 'only models in melee.' A question to be answered!
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Post by Morganstern on Apr 10, 2017 14:21:01 GMT
"If it makes a charge, the model can make its initial attacks with its ranged weapons, but these attacks can target only models in its melee range."
Can't make ranged attacks after charging as only models in your melee range are eligible targets.
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Post by pangurban on Apr 10, 2017 14:32:15 GMT
I don't think it works that way. So, on a charge, only models in melee range are eligible targets, so even after getting out of combat, or your target getting killed, you can shoot someone at range. At least, that's how I read it. I see what you're saying but I don't think it's absolutely clear. It depends on what is meant by those last two words: 'eligible target.' I interpret it as 'any target the model can shoot' but it could mean 'only models in melee.' A question to be answered! Eligible models for sure means models in the melee range here. It's still the initial attacks we're talking about, and the second sentence of the Gunfighter rule specifies they need to target models in melee range.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Apr 10, 2017 16:16:45 GMT
If I recall correctly there was a thread on the rules forum about this, and the conclusion was you have to spend your initials shooting the model you are in melee with, if you were to buy further shots with reload once the model you are in melee with is dead, they can be at something else.
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Tucker
Junior Strategist
Posts: 103
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Post by Tucker on Apr 10, 2017 16:45:14 GMT
That would be a counter-intuitive rule if all of your initials had to go against one set of targets and your additional attacks could go anywhere. It should be all one way or all the other (ie you can only make attacks against models in melee, or you can make them against anything you like). But it wouldn't be the first rule to produce a silly result on the tabletop!
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