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Post by GYF on Apr 9, 2018 14:56:12 GMT
I haven't picked Minions back up in a bit (though I imagine I will in another bit, after an upcoming event I'm not as obliged to practice any particular thing for a while and I can mess around) but I'm still fairly comfortable with the idea that a Snapper can generate value with Rask. I might try to combine it with a couple of other sources of moderate value attacks in the list, though, (something like Nyss) because the value of being able to get it 70% of the way through a heavy is a little less important the rest of the list is all heavies that can very reliably get through a heavy with Rask's buffs, making it an unreliable trade piece and an unnecessary aid to trades.
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Post by Gaston on Apr 9, 2018 15:28:49 GMT
I think with rask it works. Because +6 swing and boundless on it is awesome.... kind of. Its like some of the trolls lights, you only ever really see them work right under a caster like ragnor or Grissel 1, who provides such a massive single target buff swing, that its worth taking a beast that is so terribad. Though I do think you are being too hard on the little guy, its not his fault the devs relegated him to spiny growth on a stick. Don't you have an Eye of Menoth on a Stick (TM) to go get nerfed? The Snapper fails at Spiny on a Stick (C) anymore, now that it is self. I don't dispute that Rask can buff him up a lot, but I don't think he is really needed with Rask as you are just slamming a ton of beasts in that list anyway. The argument for him with Maelok, or Dracolok, or Dracojaga is more to either a) fill out beast points or b) fill out fury generation.
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Post by macdaddy on Apr 9, 2018 16:09:58 GMT
Don't you have an Eye of Menoth on a Stick (TM) to go get nerfed? The Snapper fails at Spiny on a Stick (C) anymore, now that it is self. I don't dispute that Rask can buff him up a lot, but I don't think he is really needed with Rask as you are just slamming a ton of beasts in that list anyway. The argument for him with Maelok, or Dracolok, or Dracojaga is more to either a) fill out beast points or b) fill out fury generation.[/quote] What are you talking about, sevy0 is perfectly fair and balanced, in fact, he needs to gain FM:oracular, be allowed in all themes, and become weaponmaster, because protectorate needs the buff That's fair, about the beast thing, tis a shame, baby crocodiles are so cute and cuddly
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Post by Gaston on Apr 9, 2018 16:42:13 GMT
What are you talking about, sevy0 is perfectly fair and balanced, in fact, he needs to gain FM:oracular, be allowed in all themes, and become weaponmaster, because protectorate needs the buff That's fair, about the beast thing, tis a shame, baby crocodiles are so cute and cuddly Sevvy0 is a free solo, and thusly his overly powerful rules cannot be adequately costed in order to balance them. All we can do is compare him to the other free solos available, which he pretty well puts to shame. The problem is not Eye per se, it is merely the symptom. And no, I don't buy the "he has to bring a warjack" argument. CM rewards such behavior, and EI only requires you to bring 60 points of Exemplar in order to maximize the benefits, so you have a nice 15 pt buffer to do with as you please. And I will assume people will build their lists and strategies in order to intelligently maximize the value of the pieces they bring (man have I been wrong on that last point before though).
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Post by macdaddy on Apr 9, 2018 18:15:02 GMT
What are you talking about, sevy0 is perfectly fair and balanced, in fact, he needs to gain FM:oracular, be allowed in all themes, and become weaponmaster, because protectorate needs the buff That's fair, about the beast thing, tis a shame, baby crocodiles are so cute and cuddly Sevvy0 is a free solo, and thusly his overly powerful rules cannot be adequately costed in order to balance them. All we can do is compare him to the other free solos available, which he pretty well puts to shame. The problem is not Eye per se, it is merely the symptom. And no, I don't buy the "he has to bring a warjack" argument. CM rewards such behavior, and EI only requires you to bring 60 points of Exemplar in order to maximize the benefits, so you have a nice 15 pt buffer to do with as you please. And I will assume people will build their lists and strategies in order to intelligently maximize the value of the pieces they bring (man have I been wrong on that last point before though). Compared to Sorscha 0 and Denny yeah he is the cream of the crop. Caine0 is dumb though. I don't buy it fully either. Mostly because after playing 2 games with him taking a warjack with him that has access to eye AND road to war is worth it. And as you said, I can reasonably fit a Templar onto him and still maximise free points in any list. The sad thing is, I know when I go onto CiD and post "hey sevvy should probably either lose eye or road to war" Ill watch him take reasonable changes while caine0 gets defended for being the bestest most balanced junior ever who needs snipe so he can be relevant.
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Post by gdead909 on Apr 10, 2018 1:36:05 GMT
Gaston, whats your current Jaga list?
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Post by Gaston on Apr 10, 2018 1:55:55 GMT
Gaston, whats your current Jaga list? Jaga-Jaga, the Death Charmer - WB: +27 - Gatorman Soul Slave - PC: 0 - Blackhide Wrastler - PC: 16 (Battlegroup Points Used: 16) - Ironback Spitter - PC: 14 (Battlegroup Points Used: 11) - Ironback Spitter - PC: 14 Sacral Vault - PC: 17 Swamp Gobber Chef - PC: 1 Bog Trog Mist Speaker - PC: 0 Croak Raiders - Leader & 9 Grunts: 16 Croak Raiders - Leader & 9 Grunts: 16 Bog Trog Ambushers - Leader & 5 Grunts: 8 THEME: The Blindwater Congregation
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draycos
Junior Strategist
Posts: 167
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Post by draycos on Apr 13, 2018 19:17:31 GMT
With the cast back up, it is time to do some R&D. This go round...Maelok (no Dracodile, it’s for realz this time!). Maelok the Dreadbound, Blindwater -Soul Slave -Wrastler -Wrastler Thrullg Thrullg Witch Doc Croc Witch Doc Croc Gatormen Posse (max) Gatormen Posse (max) Gatormen Posse (max) Bog Trog Ambushers (min) Boil Master and Spirit Cauldron Bone Shrine How do you use The Gator Posse? I find that I cannot do enough damage with them. Are they purely a Hard to remove line of bodies?
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Post by Gaston on Apr 13, 2018 20:06:34 GMT
With the cast back up, it is time to do some R&D. This go round...Maelok (no Dracodile, it’s for realz this time!). Maelok the Dreadbound, Blindwater -Soul Slave -Wrastler -Wrastler Thrullg Thrullg Witch Doc Croc Witch Doc Croc Gatormen Posse (max) Gatormen Posse (max) Gatormen Posse (max) Bog Trog Ambushers (min) Boil Master and Spirit Cauldron Bone Shrine How do you use The Gator Posse? I find that I cannot do enough damage with them. Are they purely a Hard to remove line of bodies? I bring the beasts to help with armor, can you be more specific about your posse issues and situations? I have def had them struggle hard into armor before, they must've munched on Blessing for like 3 turns in one game.
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draycos
Junior Strategist
Posts: 167
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Post by draycos on Apr 16, 2018 13:04:13 GMT
How do you use The Gator Posse? I find that I cannot do enough damage with them. Are they purely a Hard to remove line of bodies? I bring the beasts to help with armor, can you be more specific about your posse issues and situations? I have def had them struggle hard into armor before, they must've munched on Blessing for like 3 turns in one game. When I ran a 2 Posse list with Maelok, The gator posse was very hard to remove and can reliably eat Infantry. But running it into anything of an armor skew (or even jack heavy) and the gator Posse suddenly feel like they don't do much. Is the list intended as the anti infantry half of a pairing?
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Post by Tom_Bombadil_ on Apr 16, 2018 17:34:01 GMT
I bring the beasts to help with armor, can you be more specific about your posse issues and situations? I have def had them struggle hard into armor before, they must've munched on Blessing for like 3 turns in one game. When I ran a 2 Posse list with Maelok, The gator posse was very hard to remove and can reliably eat Infantry. But running it into anything of an armor skew (or even jack heavy) and the gator Posse suddenly feel like they don't do much. Is the list intended as the anti infantry half of a pairing? I can not speak for Gaston but as someone who runs Maelok 4 Posse as part of my pairing I can say that for me at least it fills the role of infantry clearing. Currently I have it paired with Rask and super friends to handle any high armor match ups.
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draycos
Junior Strategist
Posts: 167
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Post by draycos on Apr 16, 2018 18:10:34 GMT
When I ran a 2 Posse list with Maelok, The gator posse was very hard to remove and can reliably eat Infantry. But running it into anything of an armor skew (or even jack heavy) and the gator Posse suddenly feel like they don't do much. Is the list intended as the anti infantry half of a pairing? I can not speak for Gaston but as someone who runs Maelok 4 Posse as part of my pairing I can say that for me at least it fills the role of infantry clearing. Currently I have it paired with Rask and super friends to handle any high armor match ups. This is basically the pairing I was aiming for (still debating a deep dive into minions). It it worth picking up two more units of Gators?
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Post by zwergenkrieger on Apr 16, 2018 20:37:35 GMT
I can not speak for Gaston but as someone who runs Maelok 4 Posse as part of my pairing I can say that for me at least it fills the role of infantry clearing. Currently I have it paired with Rask and super friends to handle any high armor match ups. This is basically the pairing I was aiming for (still debating a deep dive into minions). It it worth picking up two more units of Gators? I´d say you can also run 3 Posse and 1 unit of Croak Raiders. Or 3 Posse and some Bog Trog Ambushers (either 2 small units or one full unit + points to spare). 4 Posse ask the hardest question, but there isn´t much variety in the list then. It´s up to you. Personally I wouldn´t run just 2 units of Posse because I think that a lot of lists are able to handle these. In addition, in Blindwater you gain free points by running infantry heavy, but which infantry do you want to run besides Posse? Or do you try to have game with just 2 free solos?
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Post by Gaston on Apr 17, 2018 12:10:14 GMT
draycos , sorry for the late reply. GMP do indeed struggle with massed armor (or really even Arm 19), though Mortality can help (depending on your opponent's spell defenses). That is why I included the x2 Wrastlers, they can be armor cracking missiles. I do want to try it with x1 Wrastler and x2 Bone Swarms to see if that is any more efficient. I am fully prepared when I play to piece trade the Wrastlers out for whatever in the list the GMP cannot kill. WRT how many Posse, I would venture 4 max is the strongest as it is the biggest skew, I personally only do 3 because I don't use Posse with any other caster at the moment and I really just don't want to invest the money or the time to paint another 5 gators. If you do Ambushers, I do highly recommend a min unit instead of a max, it makes Ambushing more cost effective. If you do Croak Raiders, I would at least consider a Blindwalker in order to forward launch Mortality onto a target. It may not be the right choice, but I would think about it at least. I will also add that being on the other end of the match up, I did play into Maelok with Dawnguard. The difference between 3 and 4 Posse made it more of a game, but just mathematically, I think the Posse would still wear down the Sentinels (you figure it takes sorta 3 Sentinels to kill a Gator but each Gator can sorta kill 2 Sentinels back).
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Post by Gaston on Apr 22, 2018 1:47:24 GMT
I came to the realization that I had not played Midas yet this year, so it was time to fix that!!!
Midas, Will Work for Food -Gunboar -Gunboar -Gunboar -Gunboar -Soul Slave Orin Midwinter Wrong Eye -Snapjaw Bone Shrine Bone Shrine Farrow Valkyries Farrow Valkyries Farrow Valkyries Nyss Hunters (max) Boil Master and Spirit Cauldron
Ended up playing into a bit of a Minion Mirror Match:
Jaga-Jaga, Blindwater -Spitter -Spitter -Bull Snapper Saral Vault Kwaak and Gub Totem Hunter Bellows Crew Croak Raiders (max) Croak Raiders (max) Ambushers (min)
I won the roll, elected to go first. Totem Hunter preys the left Bone Shrine, Ambushers choose to ambush.
Midas Turn 1: Lots of running up, Death March on the Nyss. Pot generates 3 corpses.
Jaga Turn 1: Grave Wind on Totem Hunter, Battle Host on herself. Turtle walks up and scatters a shot and kills 2 Nyss. Everything else runs up a bit, Vault generates 1 soul, Pot 3 corpses.
Midas Turn 2: I decide to take a helluva risk and move Midas way forward to get a Calamity on the right Croak Raiders. The pot moves 3 corpses to Midas, generates 2 more. Midas moves up, does his thing, kills off a Croak, and pulls from the Shrine, camping 3. Midwinter and two right side Gun Boars kill off all but 2 Croaks. Nyss and left 2 Gun Boars account for another 6 of the left Croaks. Snapjaw moves forward and submerges to get a charge lane on the Vault next turn. Wrong Eye moves up and submerges.
Jaga Turn 2: Ambushers come in, charge and kill the left Shrine, Totem Hunter moves Prey to Midas. Right Croaks run into the middle. Gobbers run up as well. Left Turtle kills 2 Nyss. Left Croaks move up and kill a Nyss, another hit is Shield Guarded by a Valkyrie. Vault moves up and takes some shots, kills a Valkyrie. Jaga moves up, casts Ghost Walk on the right Turtle, Signs and Portents, feats. The feat kills 2 Nyss, Midwinter, and hits Midas. Totem Hunter leaps over and pokes Midas. The Turtle it turns out is in charge range, he comes in and finishes Midas off.
Lessons Learned: I was expecting an attempt at a ranged assassination, I honestly didn’t measure the Turtle threat when I moved forward, very bad positioning on my part. I could have adjusted a Battle Boar’s positioning in order to body block, but I realized too late in my turn and was trying to not tip off my opponent by measuring. A few other positioning things came up: I knew that I was putting the Shrine in charge range of the Ambushers, but felt forced to do so in order to give my Gun Boar the ability to run around the forest turn 1. The other thing was the positioning of the Soul Slave, I do wonder if I could have had him far enough further forward that he could have put out the Calamity instead of risking Midas.
In the world where I didn’t get myself killed, I actually think I was in a very strong position. He was down to just 6 Croaks, and I had Snapjaw set to walk in on the Vault, then just grind the two turtles down with Battle Lust. So I think the list itself is working as intended.
One thing it does highlight that I dislike is how much is spent on supporting Midas. Between the two Shrines, the Soul Slave, and the Cauldron you are investing 14 points, which is entirely too much. I almost added in Blythe and Bull to the list as a bit of a joke, but you never know….I should end up with 5 points to play with….
PS: Don't suggest those criminally overpriced Bone Grinders!!!
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