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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Mar 14, 2017 21:36:03 GMT
Hurray, there are red colored messages here too. (<- well meaning joke)
Seriously, though. The thread title is just perfect for the present conversation.
PP ain't perfect. They've made enough questionable decisions recently to know that. PP ain't evil either. They've made plenty of great moves too.
Passions flair, stuff happens, the game is still fun. And that's the important part.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Mar 14, 2017 21:38:15 GMT
Yeah, 2Una was just bad. But again. It was a force multiplier in action. A few things that aren't that bad merge together to form something awful. Una2 was a force multiplier that worked exclusively with a single model type which (by her design) PP knew or should have known she would spam. You don't give a warlock field marshal (flank) friendly griffons, CMD range sprint (only applies to griffons) and a feat that works exclusively with flying warbeasts (but best with griffons) and NOT PLAYTEST THAT WARLOCK'S ABILITY TO SPAM GRIFFONS. It is literally the first thing anyone looking at that card thought of. Forget playtesting, the forums called 2Una out as 'likely broken' within hours of seeing her card. It's perhaps the most clear-cut case of lazy playtesting I've ever seen from PP.
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Post by karang029 on Mar 14, 2017 21:46:57 GMT
Gawd what a Scrub (har har see what I did there)
That said I still believe that some things have been for the better, caster variety exists quite well in many factions and many factions have a number of viable options. Unfortunately internal balance is also terrible. Trolls have like 8-12 solidly good model choices and a lot of niche/crap models.
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ware86
BattleBox Champ
Posts: 51
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Post by ware86 on Mar 14, 2017 21:48:36 GMT
Hurray, there are red colored messages here too. (<- well meaning joke) Seriously, though. The thread title is just perfect for the present conversation. PP ain't perfect. They've made enough questionable decisions recently to know that. PP ain't evil either. They've made plenty of great moves too. Passions flair, stuff happens, the game is still fun. And that's the important part. well that is the problem. Not for me. I like the basic rules but as soon as i just think of the amount of models that lost any in game use, i just get frustrated. Internal faction balance seems to be at an all time low, for most factions. Not talked to anyone who thinks different, but i guess we will see (in here) some saying it is better now.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Mar 14, 2017 21:49:31 GMT
Gawd what a Scrub (har har see what I did there) That said I still believe that some things have been for the better, caster variety exists quite well in many factions and many factions have a number of viable options. Unfortunately internal balance is also terrible. Trolls have like 8-12 solidly good model choices and a lot of niche/crap models. Caster variety is a thing in some factions, not so much in others, just like all other forms of internal balance. Retribution and Khador have almost all their casters at least 'playable,' just like the rest of their options are mostly playable. The same cannot be said of Cryx, Legion, Circle, Trolls, Minions, and to a lesser extent Cygnar.
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Post by Sirbrokensword on Mar 14, 2017 21:50:25 GMT
Great, the white knights followed us here. If PP is great and the players are the problem go discuss that with those that agree with you, and will not tolerate dissent. Oh? You can't? because PP closed their forums? Then shut up.
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Lanz
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Lanz on Mar 14, 2017 22:02:34 GMT
It's not the ruleset of mk3 that made groups and forums more Female Dogy, its the fact that PP introduced aggressive errata's and dynamic updates that has created a problem. The errata's and updates themselves are not the problem, they are amazing for the game and should ensure that the game is well balanced(within reason). We're not there yet, there will be mistakes and problems, but dynamic updates and the CID will continue to make this game better and better. However, instead of the mk2 attitude of overcoming problems, now people just Female Dog and whine and call for nerfs. For example, haley2 for most of mk2 was one of the most egregious casters in the history of the game (with the possible exception of una2, and she was fixed within a few months) . But back in mk2, pp would generally not change model stats or rules, so the community figured out how to play around haley2 and beat her. Wrong. People Female Doged about Haley2 quite a lot. The difference back then wasn't some tougher attitude, the difference back then was that PP had virtually NO record of nerfs/buffs outside of the edition change. When Rhyas1 got Reach, it was an unprecedented power-level buff that literally never happened before. People didn't ask for changes because there was no reason to think PP would make changes. When they started making power-level changes based on forum feedback, they opened a floodgate. None of that changes the fact that models were problems, and players struggled with it and vented on the forums. There was just less venting because the venting was just venting, and not customer feedback. The alternative wasn't 'figuring out how to play around haley2', it had literally reached the point of players refusing to play against haley2 players and shaming them, or treating a haley2 match-up as an auto-loss. Or you were dedicating one of your lists entirely to that one match-up and still hoping to just dodge it. People weren't working around haley2, she was a miserable match-up in most cases, and players just didn't have any alternative other than to not play it. None of this is good for the game. Now that PP has shown a willingness to change things, that attitude of overcoming strong models is gone, when people come up against strong models or combinations, they don't look to themselves or their faction for the tools to overcome it, they cry "OP" and complain that PP broke the game. Where in reality, the game is probably the most balanced it's every been as a whole (personal opinion). (This is of course an overgeneralization, not everybody whines and many do innovate and overcome) The above isn't to say that some things still aren't eggregious, or that pp shouldn't tone down super strong models/combination, I'm all for the dynamic updates as stated above. Things like Una2, Kharchev, High reclaimer, Khador theme, etc.... all were pretty over the top, and the changes made were by and large good for the game (some debatably overdone, but not the topic of this conversation). And there are still pieces in the game that need to be toned down and definitely pieces that need to be brought up. But just because something is strong and just because you may have trouble dealing with it does not necessarily mean its "broken" and needs to be nerfed. Many things are strong without being over the top. The CID is a great way forward as it will eventually allow overperforming models and underperforming models to be put under mass scrutiny, hopefully in a constructive matter and overtime the game should only become more and more balanced. So in conclusion, nothing about mk3 in its ruleset has really made the game or attitude towards the game that much worse. In my opinion the ruleset is in the best place its ever been (but of course could still improve). However, the willingness to change models has created a sense of entitlement in players that if a player can't deal with a certain model or combination, it's completely PP's fault and needs to be changed. Internal faction balance is still a huge mess, and that represented the vast vast majority of the Female Doging on the PP forums. People whined about the boogymen, and those boogymen got shut down, but you go to the faction forums prior to the close and it's not endless threads on how to beat stormlances (contrary to cygnar opinion, THEIR forum had the biggest thread on that topic), instead it was endless threads on how bad their own internal faction balance was, and how blatantly out of skew their own options were within themselves. Yes, this is entirely PP's fault, for yet again making massive sweeping changes instead of smaller changes, and breaking as many things as they fix. Within days of the Mk3 cards being spoiled, players had already figured out innumerable problems with the internal faction balance, and a lot of those still persist. The forum negativity reflects the overall negativity of the Mk3 experience. Yes, people's lists were invalidated. Yes, their purchases were invalidated. Yes, newer players were just getting a hold on good lists only to have it all flipped over and be told that their stuff doesn't work and they need to buy new models now. Yes, this all happened, and yes that generates a negative reaction from players. And yes, that is all PP's fault. The players didn't ask for a Mk3(well, the majority of them didn't. Some players insisted every rule issue would only be fixed by a new edition). The tail end of Mk2 was doing extremely well, and PP could have gone directly into their current errata system like that and set themselves back way less. The problem with Mk3 is absolutely and exclusively PP. You don't blame the customers for being disappointed with a bad product.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Mar 14, 2017 22:02:50 GMT
Now I feel bad. Sorry Octavius for being a jerk.
I was wrong. Lets not call each other names. That includes me and my bad behaviour as well.
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Post by karang029 on Mar 14, 2017 22:14:12 GMT
Gawd what a Scrub (har har see what I did there) That said I still believe that some things have been for the better, caster variety exists quite well in many factions and many factions have a number of viable options. Unfortunately internal balance is also terrible. Trolls have like 8-12 solidly good model choices and a lot of niche/crap models. Caster variety is a thing in some factions, not so much in others, just like all other forms of internal balance. Retribution and Khador have almost all their casters at least 'playable,' just like the rest of their options are mostly playable. The same cannot be said of Cryx, Legion, Circle, Trolls, Minions, and to a lesser extent Cygnar. Actually in my opinion Trolls and Cygnar both have a very solid list of viable casters. Ragnar, Horgle, Grissel2, 2/3 Doomys, Madrak2, Grim2, Calandra, and Borka1 all have game. Cygnar I have seen Nemo2&3, Beth, Kraye, All flavors of Haley, Sloan, Stryker1&2 and Caine2&3 all do well.
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ware86
BattleBox Champ
Posts: 51
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Post by ware86 on Mar 14, 2017 22:17:21 GMT
Lanz i love you
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Lanz
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Lanz on Mar 14, 2017 22:21:42 GMT
Now, beyond all that I just said, I did suggest in the ideas thread that this forum have a venting section both so that negative complaint threads can be directed there, and also so that people who want to avoid such topics know they can just avoid that area.
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Mar 14, 2017 23:04:43 GMT
But what if you really hate venting threads? Where would you go to vent about it?
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Lanz
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Lanz on Mar 14, 2017 23:20:19 GMT
But what if you really hate venting threads? Where would you go to vent about it? Wherever you like, but it would probably be moved to the venting section
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Post by Big Fat Troll on Mar 14, 2017 23:24:43 GMT
I bet you are the kind of Cygnar players that would have said mk2 Haley2 was fine and people only needed to "l2p". In fact, reading your opinions about Storm Lances, I'm sure. In my case, you would be wrong. After a certain point of MK2, I stopped playing Haley2 since she was obnoxious to play against. That said, while MK2 change rythm was sometimes too slow, I still think that MK3 change rythm is too fast. And it's already slowing down. Note that Storm Lances were not nerfed last week.
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Post by Big Fat Troll on Mar 14, 2017 23:29:43 GMT
CID is actually going very well.
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